Reprise on Mary Roberts (nee Philipson)

Post by **kwr** » 23 Nov 2009 17:17

In 2007 I asked for comments on why one of my lines seemed to be named either Wigans or Philipson. The replies were really interesting especially Colette's but in the end baffling - Tina delivered me some knockout blows!

I've just cautiously returned to Mary. I have her married to John Roberts in the 1841 census though I can't find a marriage for them. The reference is HO107/518/2 in case anyone needs to check. They have a 3 month old baby girl. I can find them again in 1851 with more children.

He dies 1858-61 -because she is a widow on the census- Ref. RG09/2725/55/44. She now has Alice, William, Charles, and Mary.

As usual I'm being longwinded because I don't want to put you to extra trouble but finally here it is....I cannot trace ANY of them in 1871. But in 1881 I have discovered Charles Roberts and can find him all the way up to and including 1911. So that's my dilemma - it might be me or it might simply be that there are bits of the census missing. But I do feel somewhat puzzled.

Contributions greatly welcomed.

Ken

Post by **emeltee** » 23 Nov 2009 19:44

Hi,
Have you thought of the possibility that she has married again and the family are entered under a different name?
I know that I'm not being very helpful but it is worth bearing in mind.
Emeltee

Post by **MaryA** » 23 Nov 2009 19:56

There is a marriage that would have to be confirmed

Mary Roberts married either William Kelly or Henry Norris
Q1 1866 West Derby 8b 735 - I suspect Great Crosby came under the West Derby area.

1871
RG10; Piece: 3837; Folio: 10; Page: 14
All born Great Crosby, Lancashire
The Rookery, Great Crosby and Sefton
Henry Norris Head M 56 Labourer
Mary Wife M 53
William Son Unm 20 Labourer
Charles Son Unm 16 Labourer
Mary daur 14
Mary Hughes daur 5 Scholar

Post by **kwr** » 24 Nov 2009 08:35

Thanks MLT - I did look for most of the day but I'm just not in Mary's class....

Mary,

I'll have to send for the cert becausewhat you've turned upt looks good to me. The odds are that you are correct. I'll let you know if it works.

Ken

Post by **kwr** » 24 Nov 2009 11:33

Mary,
I looked at the 1871 census and....in view of the discrepancy in the name of the youngest child (Mary Hughes) I checked and found a marriage of Hugh Hughes to a Mary Roberts in the June quarter of 1861 West Derby 8b 724 .

I then found the death of a Hugh Hughes in the June quarter of 1865 West Derby 8b 317. Subsequently there is the marriage of Mary Roberts to Henry Norris in the March quarter of 1866 West Derby 8b 735!

Do you think (to paraphrase a Private Eye catchphrase) they are by any chance related?
Widowed once did happen a lot, twice less so. I haven't yet looked further but I wonder if she will reach a hat trick? Watch this space.

Ken

Post by **MaryA** » 24 Nov 2009 14:40

I believe you would have to get young Mary Hughes birth certificate to know the truth, unfortunately more money, unless a baptism could be found, possibly in the Crosby area.

It is difficult to guess at since, although it would seem as if she had a marriage to Hughes to produce the child, how come she married as Roberts. The marriage certificate to Henry Norris isn't going to make any mention of it, I don't believe, since logically she should have married as "Mary Hughes".

Post by **kwr** » 24 Nov 2009 14:42

Curiouser and curiouser.... having found a Mary Roberts marrying Hugh Hughes in 1861 I now see that an Alice Roberts married a Patrick Hughes inthe June quarter of 1862 West Derby 8b 773.

I'm not sure I can afford the financial strain.

Ken

Post by **MaryA** » 24 Nov 2009 15:09

kwr wrote: I'm not sure I can afford the financial strain.

Well if young Mary is the mystery you are after solving, you can leave the second marriage for the time being since she is classed as "daughter" in the household of the Norrises.

Post by **kwr** » 24 Nov 2009 16:25

Sorry Mary - just being facetious. You are almost certainly right about her name on a third marriage certificate being given as Hughes.

As regards a birth certificate for Mary Hughes I have one instance of a woman who marries a second time and has a child by her second husband. On the birth certificate she is down as "late".

I understand that this is the convention if she gave her former married name whereas, if it were her unmarried name. it would be the usual "formerly". So IF I could find the right Mary Hughes birth certificate it could confirm both Roberts and Hughes - worth the money especially if I put in a mother's first name! As usual though with many names there are just too many - 14 Mary Hughes in 1866 alone.

I'll just have to brood a while....

Ken

Post by **Hilary** » 24 Nov 2009 16:52

What religion are the family? If you know that might help with perhaps some look ups in the churches concerned.

Ed Officer

Post by **kwr** » 01 Dec 2009 10:18

Sorry for delay in replying to you Ed. Off. and rest of crew - I've had severe ISP and server problems but OK I hope now.

To answer are they Catholic? - It is quite likely they were. Reasons are:

1.)The Philipsons have connections to Little Crosby's St. Mary' church - one has only to look at the birth registers online to see the names.

2.) Mary Philipson marries John Roberts. One child Margaret born in 1843 subsequently marries William Matthew Roberts. It is my impression that when these two die - he in 1889 and she in 1918 they are buried in St. Peter/Paul Gt. Crosby which is Catholic. I can't say this absolutely definitely because the document I have is a copy of a page for the purchase of a burial plot provided possibly by his son Francis. BUT the buyer is infuiatingly referred to only as Mr. Roberts.

3.) Finally within the family it is said that Francis and his brother Stanley, subsequently converted to become C of E. Their children were baptised in C. of E. churches.

Hope the above sounds convincing? Comments welcome and I have to say I have not yet sent off for any certificates but I'll have quite obviously.

Ken

Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum