Liverpool Workhouse Brownlow Hill

[carwin]

Thank you for adding me to your forum list - I am a member of the Cumbria Family History Society and most of my ancestors come from that area however I do have some links to Liverpool and Lancashire. I am hoping that someone with local knowledge and expertise can help solve a family mystery. I have just received my father-in-laws birth full certificate - Joseph Winthrop. He was born on 1 December 1916 but his birth was only registered in the March quarter of 1931 by declaration of his father. The story is that his mother went from Carlisle to Liverpool to stay with relatives when he was born - the short birth certificate didn't have a place of birth. The full birth certificate identifies he was born at 144a Brownlow Hill which I have found out was the Workhouse. I wonder why his birth would not have been registered at the time - I know it was the middle of WW1 but there were probably lots of babies born there. His mother was Margaret Jane Smith who was born in Liverpool on 3 January 1894 and baptised at St Matthias on 22 February 1894. On the birth certificate the mother is Margaret Jane Winthrop (formerly Smith) however she did not marry William Winthrop until January 1918 in Carlisle. Would there be records from the Workhouse that would identify when she was admitted and that she gave birth and when she was discharged. I have not found a confirmed record of where Margaret was in 1911 census although she was an orphan by then as both her parents had died - there was a Margaret Jane Smith born in Liverpool, in the Workhouse in 1911 but she is listed as being 37 so unless the information was entered incorrectly that would not be her.

Any help on this would be gratefully received
Many thanks
Carol
Gold Coast
Australia

[Bertieone]

Hi Carol and welcome,

For Workhouse related, Liverpool records office and/or FMP may help, I'm not subscribed to FMP.

Margaret Jane may not have been an inmate but just used the infirmary to give birth to Joseph.

Below is the image from the GRO, if it's the correct registration, it suggests the father wasn't present at registration.



Is this a possible baptism for Joseph,

St Columba, Liverpool, 1916.

[carwin]

Many thanks for that information - that certainly could have been a baptism for Joseph - and the Winthrop name is not mentioned on there. I will see if I can find who was living at that address in the 1911 census

I have a subscription to My Heritage and can access Ancestry library copy. Normally I can access FMP at our State Library but the family history computer area has not yet reopened so I will go there once it does.

I have contacted GRO to ask if the declaration made by the father to register the birth in 1931 would have been retained and if I would be able to get a copy - but I think that is unlikely. Probably the provision of proof would not have been as stringent back then.

Kind regards
Carol

[carwin]

Hi Bert

I just re-read your reply and suddenly realised that the GRO reference is different from the one that I used to get the certificate (I had only searched on Winthrop and not Smith) and the name on that one you provided is SMITH - wow I wonder if the birth was actually registered twice - once with the Smith name and then in 1931 as Winthrop. I will now have to order that Smith birth certificate and check it out - I don't think that I am going to tell the family about this for now!!

Thanks again
Carol

[Bertieone]

1911 Directory,

124 Richmond Row, Mrs Ethel Walsh, Herbalist.

Worth checking this marriage, etc.

WALSH Peter T, SMITH Ethel, 1901, Kirkdale, St. Mary Liverpool

I think his full name is, Peter Thomas George Walsh.

[Bertieone]

Info,

https://www.gov.uk/correct-birth-registration

This part may be relevant if available in 1931,

"However, you can apply to re-register the birth if the natural parents get married at a later date".

[carwin]

Hi Bert
I have been searching and searching. Where did you find the baptism at St Columba? I haven't been able to find an Ethel Walsh in the 1911 census that would match what you found in the directory - I suppose I will just have to be inventive and keep looking - I found some McKenny's I was looking for recently recorded as McHenry - so my mantra is when you can't find it just keep looking!
Cheers
Carol

[Bertieone]

Ancestry,

The link for when you get to the Library, it won't open unless you are signed in to Anc.

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/s ... sePUB=true

[Bertieone]

Carol,

Just a couple of observations,

The 1911 directory, Alphabetical Directory section has Mrs Ethel Walsh, Street Directory section, Miss Ethel Walsh, both 124 Richmond Row.

124 Richmond Row is not recorded on the 1911 census, though recorded as a shop in the summary books.

[Bertieone]

I think this is the 1911 census for Walsh/Smith,

5 Dunbar St, Church Rd, West Derby,

George Walsh 33
Ethel Walsh 30
George Walsh 9
Roland Walsh 2
William Walsh 60

Children had mothers maiden name, Smith.

Don't know as yet if this is the Ethel who had the shop in Richmond Row.

[carwin]

Hi Bert

Many thanks for all the information. I have ordered a birth certificate for Smith. I will wait until I get that and a response from GRO regarding the query about the Winthrop birth certificate before I do any further follow up. Hopefully by then I will be able to access FMP at the library to see if Margaret Smith was there just to have the baby. I also wonder if she might have been admitted there previously after her parents died as she was an orphan at about age 12. I haven't found any linkage with Ethel Smith/Walsh as yet but will do some more digging. It is interesting that the address on the baptism you found was Richmond Hill which had been a shop!

I will be looking for* Margaret Jane Smith born 3/1/1894 to see if she was an inmate at the workhouse any time between about 1904 and 1916 that would be wonderful and much appreciated

Cheers
Carol

*Amended MA - contravention of Findmypast Terms & Conditions to either offer or request a look up from their databases.

[MaryA]

These images are too big to post on here so you should download them and you would be able to see the entries better.

https://imgur.com/LbW46at
and
https://imgur.com/M6icM97

Entry 930 refers to the birth of Joseph.
https://imgur.com/VjgKPei
https://imgur.com/fzvXBj6

[Bertieone]

Excellent, Mary, well done.

[MaryA]

Wouldn't have done it without the multitude of clues you found first. Wellll let's just have a mutual admiration society

[Bertieone]

The story is that his mother went from Carlisle to Liverpool to stay with relatives when he was born - I have not found a confirmed record of where Margaret was in 1911 census although she was an orphan by then as both her parents had died

Name: Margaret Smith
Age in 1911: 17
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1894
Relation to Head: Inmate
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Crofscanonby
County/Island: Cumberland
Country: England
Street Address: Ellen Grove Laundry Maryport
Marital status: Single
Occupation: House Maid
Registration District: Cockermouth

RG14 P31461

[carwin]

Many thanks Mary and Bert - your assistance with this is much appreciated - and my apologies for my inappropriate request.

You have now given me a dilemma - I am going to have to think this through before deciding if I tell any of the family. There is a name for an aunt there which I was not aware of so I will follow up on that.

I had found the 1911 census page for the Laundry in Cumberland but have no proof that that is her - there are a couple of other Margaret Smiths who are servants in Liverpool who could also be possibles. I will do some more research and see if there is an admission register for the laundry.

I will let you know how I go - certainly this has broken down a couple of brick walls.

Thank you again
Carol

[carwin]

Hello again

I finally did get the birth registration for Joseph Smith and there is a marginal note stating that it was re-registered under the Legitimacy Act 1926. I have been in touch with Joseph's youngest sister who is 86 and the only one still alive but she has not really been able to add any information about who Sarah Downes although she does remember going to Liverpool in the early 1940s to visit an aunt Sarah so I am still working out who she was (I didn't tell her that Joe had been born in the workhouse!).

Thank you all for your previous help

Kind regards

Carol

[Bertieone]

Hi Carol,

Thank you for the update, Sarah Downes? not seen mention of her before?

[MaryA]

Sarah Downes

Tell us more, we love a good mystery, perhaps we can help.

[carwin]

Thank you for your interest. In the Workhouse Religious Creed register listed as her nearest relatives are aunt Sarah J Downs of 15 Welton Street and brother Thos Smith, Myrtle Street Military Hospital. Margaret's older brother Thomas W Smith had actually married the sister of William Winthrop(Margaret's future husband) in Carlisle in 1908. In the 1911 census Thomas was in lodgings in Carlisle and working as a labourer and his wife was working as a servant but was listed as single and still using her maiden name (maybe she would not have got the job if they knew she was married). I know that Thomas was wounded as there is an index reference to an article about him in the Cumberland News on 19/08/1916 that he was wounded on 14/7/16 - I am waiting for my brother-in-law to get a copy of the article from microfilm once he is able to get to the library in Carlisle when it reopens. I think I have found Sarah Jane Downes (born Evans daughter of John and Mary) who married James Downes in Toxteth Park in 1908. I haven't been able to work out the relationship or connection with Margaret Jane Smith. There is too much information to write it all in here or your heads would be spinning as much as mine - the nearest clue I have is that Sarah's parents came from the same place in Wales as the wife of the brother of Margaret Smith's grandfather!!!

Kind regards
Carol