Help Needed ! What Happened To Phoebe Davies Ireland ??

[Kizzy]

Hello,
I'm trying to find out what happened to my 3x great grandmother. Phoebe Davies,dau. of William & Ann Holme Davies, was born Nov. 1808 Liverpool. She was christened Dec. 1808 @ St. Nicholas,Liverpool.
Phoebe Davies married Apr. 1825 @ St. Peter's Liverpool to Thomas Ireland,engineer (1805-1880). They had 3 known children,the youngest (my 2x great grandmother), Mary Elizabeth, born 1830 Liverpool and was christened @ St. Peter's Liverpool.

A Thomas Ireland, engine man, married 6 Aug. 1832 @ St. Peter's Liverpool to Catherine Hockadey.Could this be the same Thomas? What happened to wife,Catherine?

Thomas Ireland then married Feb.1837 @ St. John's Liverpool to Ellen Davies (1814-1890) They had 8 known children. Ellen Davies was a sister to Phoebe Davies Ireland.

What happened to Phoebe? Did she remarry? When/where did she die/buried? I've not found any further information about her,so any suggestions or help would be appreciated.
Regards,
Kizzy

[Bertieone]

Hi Kizzy and welcome,

I'd like to hear a second opinion, I'm not convinced the signatures for Thomas Ireland are the same person, Marriages, Phoebe/Catherine.

[Bertieone]

Can only find the Thomas/Ellen marriage here,

https://familysearch.org/search/record/ ... e%3Adavies~

[MaryA]

Hello Kizzy and welcome to the forum. Perhaps you don't have the marriage entries as you don't give us links to them, so I have posted them here for the benefit of second opinions.
I don't think they look the same either.

[Kizzy]

Hello Bert and Mary A.,
I'm sorry that I only had a copy of Thomas & Phoebe's marriage,so could not compare signatures.If it's felt that these 2 marriages are not the same Thomas,then that solves 1 question.The 2nd question remains - what happened to Phoebe between 1830,when youngest dau. was born and Feb.1837 when Thomas married Ellen Davies,Phoebe's sister??

Also, to further compare Thomas's signature, St. John's online marriage records start with July 1837,5 mos. after his marriage to Ellen. Are there earlier records available?
Since no death/burial record has been found,so far, for Phoebe,would there be church or newspaper obituaries available for 1830-1836?

This family mystery has been a real headache,for a long time!! The answer is hiding somewhere,but where?

Thank you both for your time and help.If you could offer anymore help or suggestions,I would be so grateful.
Regards,
Kizzy

[MaryA]

Thomas Ireland then married Feb.1837 @ St. John's Liverpool to Ellen Davies (1814-1890) They had 8 known children. Ellen Davies was a sister to Phoebe Davies Ireland.

If the records aren't available online, where have you found this information from?

I'm afraid the answer to the lack of marriage detail will be the same as the reason why there is no death entry in the indexes, Civil Registration began part way through 1837 and so neither event is going to be listed in them.

The register for the marriage should be held at the Liverpool Records Office.

For a death/burial prior to this date you could first of all check online where transcriptions have been uploaded. We have made a list of sites here http://forum.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk ... =14&t=5739 It also gives the dates many cemeteries opened, your date might be earlier than most and you may need to check churchyards. Which ones would depend on whereabouts they lived and also possibly which religion they were, again these records would be held at the Record Office.

I have done two checks for you
1 being in the Gibsons Epitaphs - no entries for the Irelands you are looking for.
2 being in the online newspapers - no result for Phoebe Ireland between those dates.

[Kizzy]

I found the 1837 marriage record,but no image on familysearch,then looked on Ancestry @ Liverpool Marriages & Banns 1813-1921 St. John's,but the records only started in July 1837.I was not able to view the original record on either site.

I'll have to see if church burial records,beginning with St.Peters (where Phoebe &Thomas married and children were christened) are available at my local LDS library.

Thank you for all your time and help. It's greatly appreciated.

[alex69]

There is a PHEBE DAVIES buried at St Mary's Cemetery Liverpool on 15th March 1839 aged 29. Abode is given as "Workhouse".

From Anc "Liverpool England Burials 1813-1974"

Alex

Ooops maybe if I looked for Phoebe Ireland!!

[Kizzy]

Hi All,
I apoligize in my original postings for not being specific with reference sources. Sorry for any confusion or misunderstanding.
The marriage record for Thomas Ireland and Phoebe Davies in 1825 and the marriage record for Thomas Ireland and Ellen Davies in 1837, were obtained from Lancs. O.P.C. I feel confident these are the correct records.
In regards to the other marriage record for Thomas Ireland and Catherine Hockaday,it's believed that this Thomas was a different person,as the signatures didn't match.

In the meantime, I've searched the Ancestry Liverpool Burials 1813-1974 for the death of Phoebe Davies Ireland,with no luck ! The Phoebe Ireland, who is listed on Free BMD, as dying in 1840 Manchester, is not my Phoebe. There doesn't seem to be another Phoebe listed on Free BMD, that seems to match.

Recently, I've come across on Ancestry Birmingham Marriages 1754-1937, a St.George marriage dated 15 Aug. 1836 for a William Ray,widower,of this parish and Phoebe Ireland, widow, of this parish. I've not been able to locate this William or Phoebe Ray in any 1841 or 1851 census,to see if this is my Phoebe.
According to Free BMD, there are a few William Ray's who died in Birmingham in 1840,so possibly Phoebe was widowed. Still, there is no death listed for a Phoebe Ray (of various spellings).

So, I'm back to where I started. What happened to Phoebe?
Possibly, I'm overlooking something.
Any help or suggestions would be welcome.Thank you for the help.

[dickiesam]

Hi Kizzy and welcome,

I'd like to hear a second opinion, I'm not convinced the signatures for Thomas Ireland are the same person, Marriages, Phoebe/Catherine.

I see two scenarios..
1) Given there's a 7 year gap between the Davies and Hockadey marriages I think the two signatures of Thos Ireland have significant similarities and I lean towards this being the same Thomas Ireland in both marriages. If that is the case it strongly suggests that the first wife Phoebe had died. Divorce would be nigh on impossible for a working man.

2) If the two Thomas' are not the same man it still indicates that Phoebe had died and her sister Ellen would, I believe, be very reluctant to enter into a bigamous marriage.

So I think Phoebe died between the 1830 birth for her youngest child and 1832, or in the latter scenario, 1837.

As support for this death theory there is the 1841 census..
HO107 Piece: 567 Book/Folio: 4/45 Page: 4
Address: Waring's Terrace, Stanhope Street, Toxteth Park, Liverpool
IRELAND, Thomas 35 1806 Engineer - Lancashire
IRELAND, Ellen 25 1816 - Lancashire
IRELAND, Ann 15 1826 - Lancashire
IRELAND, Ellen 12 1829 - Lancashire
IRELAND, Mary 10 1831 - Lancashire
IRELAND, William 3 1838 - Lancashire
IRELAND, John 0 (9 MONTHS) 1840 - Lancashire
DAVIES, William 60 1781 Ag. labourer - Born out of county.

Ellen is highly unlikely to have been the mother of Ann, Ellen and Mary. I believe they were Phoebe's children. And, subject to confirmation, William and John are Ellen's children.

[Kizzy]

Hi DS,
Thank you for your reply. I somewhat agree there could be similarities in both Thomas Ireland's signitures between the Davies - Hockadey marriages. You're right in saying divorce was near impossible. Since no death record has been found for Phoebe betw. 1830-1837, I have a theory that she possibly left Thomas & children Ann,Ellen & Mary and took off with another man. After so many years, maybe Thomas thought she was dead. My mind is going crazy thinking of different scenerios!!!

Even if Phoebe was in a hospital/workhouse betw. 1830-1837 and died,wouldn't her death/burial be recorded in a Liverpool church cemetery?

I appreciate your time and theory,but I still feel more searching has to be done. You've given me a lot to think about. Thank you.

[Bertieone]

I still don't think the signatures are from the same hand, I agree with DS, I don't think sister Ellen would knowingly have entered into a bigamous marriage. I can't see Thomas and Ellen naming a daughter Pheobe/Phebe in 1845, if Pheobe's disappearance was anything other than death. If it was only an assumption of death, no body found, there must be records somewhere allowing Thomas to remarry.

Has Thomas's grave been found and checked who else is buried with him, if any?

[Hilary]

Until 1907 you couldn't marry your deceased wife's sister! If you married in a large city who would know! You wouldn't tell!

[dickiesam]

Just a few snippets to correct the birth years of the children Mary, Ann and Ellen Ireland.

From FamilySearch....
Name: Mary Ireland
Christening Date: 12 Apr 1830 [Not 1831!]
Christening Place: St. Peter's, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father's Name: Thomas Ireland
Mother's Name: Phoebe Ireland

Similarly, Ann Ireland was born in 1825 not 1826...
Name: Ann Ireland
Christening Date: 11 Sep 1825
Christening Place: St. Peter's Church, Liverpool, Lancashire
Father's Name: Thomas Ireland
Mother's Name: Phoebe

And Ellen was born in either January 1828 or late 1827, not 1829.
Name: Ellen Ireland
Christening Date: 13 Jan 1828
Christening Place: St. Peter's, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father's Name: Thomas Ireland
Mother's Name: Phoebe

[louis]

Hi Kizzy,

This is the same family DS found in the 1841 Census.

1851 Census
HO107, Piece: 2188, Folio: 231, Page: 29, Schedule 121
Address: 108 Park St, Toxteth Park, Liverpool
IRELAND, Thomas – Head, Mar. 45 Engineer – Lancashire, Hale,
IRELAND, Ellen – Wife, Mar. 38 – Toxteth Park
IRELAND, Ellen – Daur. Un. 23 Spinster – Toxteth Park
IRELAND, John – Son, Un. 10 Scholar - Toxteth Park
IRELAND, Thomas – Son, Un. 8 Scholar - Toxteth Park
IRELAND, Phoebe – Daur., Un. 5 Scholar - Toxteth Park
IRELAND, James – Son, Un. 2 – Toxteth Park
IRELAND, Rebecca– Daur., Un. 0 mth – Toxteth Park
DAVIES, Wm. – Father-in-law, Widower 72 Warehouse labourer – Flintshire, St. Asaph??

1861 Census
RG9, Piece: 2706, Folio: 25, Page: 46, Schedule 220
Address: 8 Mornington St, Toxteth Park, Liverpool
IRELAND, Thomas – Head, Mar. 55 Engineer – Lancashire, Hale
IRELAND, Ellen – Wife, Mar. 46 – Liverpool
IRELAND, John – Son, Un. 20 Commercial Clerk - Toxteth Park
IRELAND, Thomas – Son, Un. 18 Engineer - Toxteth Park
IRELAND, Phoebe – Daur., Un. 16 Scholar - Toxteth Park
IRELAND, James – Son, Un. 12 Scholar – Toxteth Park
IRELAND, Eliza – Daur., Un. 6 Scholar – Toxteth Park
IRELAND, Charlotte – Daur., Un. 2 Scholar – Toxteth Park

1871 Census
RG10, Piece: 3801, Folio: 126, Page: 43, Schedule 212
Address: 21 Wellington Road, Toxteth Park, Liverpool
IRELAND, Thomas – Head, Marr. 66 Steam Vessel Engine Driver - Lancashire, Hale
IRELAND, Ellen – Wife, Marr. 56 - Liverpool
IRELAND, Thomas – Son, Unmarr. 28 Engine Fitter - Liverpool
IRELAND, Phoebe – Dau., Unmarr. 26 Seamstress - Liverpool
IRELAND, James – Son, Unmarr. 22 Freight Clerk – Liverpool

1881 Census
RG11, Piece: 3645, Folio: 21, Page: 36, Schedule 174
Address: 21 Wellington Road, Toxteth Park, Liverpool
IRELAND, Ellen – Head, Wid. 67 - Liverpool
IRELAND, Thomas – Son, Unm., 38 Engine Fitter - Liverpool
IRELAND, Phoebe – Dau., Unm., 36 No Occupation - Liverpool
IRELAND, James – Son, Unm., 32 Labour (sic) – Liverpool

Lancashire OPC
Baptism: 19 May 1845 @ St. Peter, Liverpool
Phebe Ireland – Thomas Ireland & Ellen
Tamworth St. Toxteth
Engineer

Death Registration
September Qtr. 1880
Thomas Ireland
Age at Death: 75
Registration District: West Derby
Volume: 8b
Page: 242

Death Registration
December Qtr. 1890
Ellen Ireland
Age at Death: 76
Registration District: Toxteth Park
Volume: 8b
Page: 181

Ellen is buried in St. James Cemetery, Liverpool.

If you do not have the Death Certificates for Thomas & Ellen I would suggest to purchase them, especially for the Informant's details, as from 1875 the relationship of the informant to the deceased was given. If Ellen was the Informant on Thomas' DC it should state their relationship.

There is no burial record for Phoebe Ireland or Davies in the Necropolis or St. James Cemetery. As Mary has suggested you should focus your search on the churchyards. I would also keep in mind Phoebe may have died in childbirth or shortly after, so initially I would concentrate on the years 1830-1832.

Hope this helps
Louis


________________________________________________________________________
The Census information in this post is Crown Copyright from the National Archives.

[Kizzy]

Hi Bert.Hilary and DS,
Thank you all, for your imput. I agree that Thomas & Ellen would be unlikely to name their daughter after wife Phoebe, if she had run off with someone else. Possibly, after a few years of no contact, Thomas may have assumed she had died,which would leave him free to remarry. I'm sure no one knew that he was marrying his wifes sister!!

Bert, the suggestion of checking Thomas's grave seems like a good idea. I know he died in 1880 and is buried in St. James Cemetery Liverpool,but have no idea of a grave number. Is there any way, either online or by snailmail,that I could find who may be buried with him? I live in the U.S. so a visit to the cemetery or a phone call,is out of the question.

The marriage in 1836 Birmingham,betw. Phoebe Ireland & William Ray still interests me.My problem is there is no 1841 + census records for them and still no death record (that matches) for a Phoebe Ray (of numerous spellings). There are a few deaths in 1838 Birmingham for William Ray, according to Free BMD, but not sure if any are Phoebe's husband.

I feel that I've hit a brick wall,but hope the answer is out there, somewhere ! I guess after more than 150 yrs. Phoebe still doesn't want to be found !!
Thank you for the help. It's much appreciated. Advice/suggestions are always welcome.

[Kizzy]

Louis,
Thank you, so much for the information & suggestions. I've checked each parish listed in Ancestry's Liverpool Burials 1813-1974 with no luck !

Right now, it seems Phoebe has left the planet ! I'm beginning to think she was kidnapped by aliens! I'm unsure as to what to try next.

[louis]

Hi Kizzy,

Ancestry does not have all of the Liverpool Burial Records online for the period you are searching.

Louis

[MaryA]

Please don't rely on Ancestry, I'm afraid people with a subscription seem to feel it is the be all and end all of databases, but there is so much not available on their site.

To begin with we have put together a list of suggestions for Burials and MI's here http://forum.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk ... =14&t=5739 especially good is the Old Mersey Times site that has hundreds, if not thousands of entries but not in a database form, it's a page by page search but worth it if you come across one of those you are searching for.

At the date you are looking at there were probably far more churchyards than cemeteries, have you checked each of these? most that are on microfilm can be made available at LDS Centres.

Have you checked for Wills? I don't just mean those for people with a direct connection to the family you are looking at, but perhaps anybody who might have been a brother or father to Phoebe, she may have a mention.

[Kizzy]

Hi Mary A,
Thank you for the suggestions for Burials and MI's. The Old Mersey Times site was extremely interesting,even though there was no mention of my family.

I was not aware that Ancestry's Liverpool Burial records are not complete. I've viewed all parish cemeteries betw. 1830-1837 with no luck. Apparently,Ancestry does not offer the records for the Necropolis.

I feel at this time, a visit to my local LDS library is necessary. I'll see where this adventure leads me. In searching the Necropolis records,which might give me more information,order books,burial register or register of graves?

I shall let you know when Phoebe is found. Thank you all, for the interest,time and help you've given me. I really appreciate everything.
Best wishes,
Nancy