james irving birth

[john finnegan]

looking for the birth of james irving b 1854, father william, brass fitter , mother poss sarah I have marriage certificate, married ann fox 19/12/1875 st judes liverpool. I have come up with a birthplace for james as cockermouth cumberland 9/4/1854. I was thinking his birth would be liverpool.
many thanks.

[Blue70]

I don't think it's the Cumberland one as it looks like that one appears later on census records as Irwin. Your man appears on census records as born in Liverpool so in the absence of a good Liverpool candidate for the birth he might be the James Irving born in Birkenhead in 1854?

Blue

[MaryA]

Marriage details for anybody wishing to help - occupation very important as I was looking at a census entry for a James Irving, mariner, which I assume is the incorrect entry.
19th December 1875 - St Judes.
James Irving 21 Bachelor Light Porter Stancliffe Street
Father William Irving Brass Fitter
Annie Maria Fox 21 Spinster Stancliffe Street
Father Charles Fox, Farmer
Both appeared to have signed their names
Witnesses Henry Walsh and Margaret Welsh (signed her X)

Please confirm which of the 1881 census entries is yours

[Bertieone]

Is this the family in 1881, living at 22 Lundle St, Liverpool,

James, 24, Mariner,
Annie, 23,
Charlotte, 5,
Elizabeth, 3,
Isabelle, 1,
RG 11, Piece, 3668, Folio, 62, Page, 25
1891,
RG, 12, Piece, 2992, Folio, 46, Page, 7.

If so, possible that both give false ages at their marriage,

Free BMD,

James Irving
June Qtr, 1856, Liverpool, 8b 23....?
June Qtr, 1857, West Derby, 8b 381...?

Annie Fox,
March Qtr, 1856, West Derby, 8b 390...?


Bert

[MaryA]

If we are unable to identify him, there is still the option of applying to the GRO with the choice of not knowing the reference and they should check two years around the date you give for a James with the correct father. The difficulty being that there is a possibility that William's occupation may not be the same 20 years earlier, so help from the crew for any earlier censuses will be gladly accepted.

[Bertieone]

If James Irving, Mariner, is the correct one, A James Irving, aged 15 can be found in 1871 aboard the training ship Indefatigable moored in the Mersey, the Indefatigable trained the poor or orphaned sons of Mariners.
William the father may have been at one time a mariner.

1871 census,
Rg 10 Piece 3742 folio 139.



Bert

[Tina]

Hi there
I hope this is your family? It's doubtful....
1861 census William Irving 45 dock labr born Scotland
His wife a lot younger Ann 26, James 5, Wm 2 and a half, all born Lpool.
112 Park Lane, Pitt St, Lpool.
Mother in law is Ann surname Calerston, doubtful.

[john finnegan]

Many thanks, not convinced we have the right one. I have ann marie fox birth certificate, born 29 july 1855 mother elizabeth fox formerly williams, which confirms her age for checking census. Her father cotton porter. Also have birth certificate for a charlotte irving born 12 may 1876 19 ellesmere street liverpool, father james irving joiner, mother ann Irving formerly fox. Would be grateful for more census searches if possible.
john

[Bertieone]

1861 census,
William Henry St, Liverpool,

Charles Fox, head, 40, Cotton Porter,bn, Welshpool, Wales.
Elizabeth, wife, 36, Welshpool,
Annie M, daughter, 5, bn, Liverpool,
Ann Brown, 19, border, servant, Liverpool
Teresa Kirkpatrick, 18, seamstress, Liverpool
Thomas Davies, 48, marr, Cotton Porter, Carlise,
Julia Davies, 38, Ireland.

Rg 9, Piece 2710, Folio 11, Page 19.

[MaryA]

Please confirm which of the 1881 census entries is yours

The 1881 census that Bertieone found is the same as the one I looked at myself and the occupation conflicts with that on the marriage certificate. Is your James indeed a mariner?

[Bertieone]

It looks favourable that James was a Mariner in 1881, it not only conflicts with his occupation on his marriage cert, Light Porter, Dec, 1875, come the birth of Charlotte, 5 months later, May 1876, he declares himself a Joiner. Assuming John has the correct certs, It is possible that James decided to go away to sea.



Bert

[Bertieone]

Hi John,

Not wishing to unnecessarily fog up the thread with full details yet, have any of these names cropped up during your research,

Thomas Mousley, Henry Mitchell, George John Evans,



Bert

[john finnegan]

I think we have them at lundie street , and also william henry street ( a lot of people in one house, maybe a boarding house) I have a marriage certificate for 1901 st judes liverpool, a george john evans 25 a sailor and charlotte irving 22 her father james is a sailor, thanks to all well done.

[Bertieone]

If we accept 1881, Lundie St, as the correct family.

Charlotte Irving, 22, married George John Evans, 20, Sailor, 4th Aug, 1901, St Jude, Liverpool,
Father's, John Evans, Blacksmith, James Irving, Sailor.
Witnesses, William Irving, Margaret Ellen Irving.

In 1901 I can only find Charlotte prior to her marriage living with her siblings and brother in law.

Thomas Mousley, 21
Elizabeth, wife, 23,
Harriet, Daughter, 1,
William Irving, 18, Bro in law,
Charlotte Irving, 24, sis in law
Hannah Mitchell,21, sis in law,

Rg 13, Piece 3493, Folio 114, Page 22

9th Jan 1898, St Simon, Liverpool,

Thomas Mousley, 21, soldier, married Elizabeth Irving, 21,
Father's, Benjamin Mousley, Butcher, James Irving, Shoemaker.
Witnesses, Robert Newcombe, Mary Alice Mousley.

21st Feb 1901, St Nathaniel, Edge Hill, Liverpool.

Henry Mitchell, 25, Sailor, married Isabella Irving, 21,
Fathers, James Mitchell, Upholsterer, James Irving, Shoemaker.
Witnesses, Thomas Mousley, Elizabeth Mousley.

If this is the correct family, it looks like James has had another change of occupation.


Bert

[john finnegan]

Thanks Bert, I can understand james being a mariner if he trained as one in1871, and may have been waiting for a ship around the time of his wedding, and took the easy option of becoming a shoemaker later in life. We will never know. Thanks for the other two marriages.
john