Help needed. Irish ancestors - Goldie and Towie.

[PJLong]

Hoping for a shove in the right direction! Am wondering which road to take with my GGGrandfather, Patrick Goldie (Gourlay on marriage cert 1865 Dumbarton spouse Helen Towie) b abt 1843 "Ireland" according to his marriage, death and census ages. The marriage and death certs name his parents as Patrick (death cert) or Michael (marriage cert) Mother is the same on both - Bridget nee Somers/Summers. He has an elder brother, Michael and a definite younger brother, James (1871 Scotland census) Patrick's marriage has a Thomas Goldie as witness - another possible brother? Michael's marriage (1865 Dumbarton) has parents named as Michael Goldie dec and Bridget Goldie nee Summers dec.
I'd really like to know where to look for the family in Ireland pre 1861 and how?
Luckily the Towie family have been slightly easier as their birthplace is SLIGO! Having contacted Sligo Heritage Centre they did a supersearch for Helen Towies family....to no avail! Helen had five sisters that I know of, Bridget, Margaret, Catherine, Elizabeth and Ann. I have the family with Helen aged 8 in Dumbarton 1851. Maybe their Irish records are in another bordering county? I'm positive the father was James but mother could have been Mary (Helen's marriage cert) nee Feenie or Bridget (Helen's death cert) nee Feaney!
Sorry if I've rambled and confused folk but any hints will be greatly appreciated. Shouldn't have gone to Hulme Hall on Sunday as it's got me fired up again!
Thanks each,
Pauline.

[Blue70]

This morning's "Heir Hunters" had a family of Summers from Ireland it's probably available on the BBC iplayer if you missed it.

Blue

[PJLong]

Saw it! Did wonder! Not sure of the spelling of my ancestor's version though....Summers or Somers as it's written as both!

[dickiesam]

Hi Pauline,
I see you have a number of events in Scotland. This would lead me to think the family possibly originated in the north of Ireland. That would include the counties now part of Northern Ireland with the addition of Donegal and perhaps the border counties like Sligo, Cavan and Louth. I believe most of the families who made the annual journey were from the eastern counties such as Antrim because it was a lot less travel to Scottish ports.

There was an annual migration from the North to Scotland for the potato harvest and many families stayed. Bit like the Cockney families heading to Kent for the hop-picking season.

Re that Towie surname, I'd suggest you consider Towey. The Griffiths Valuation completed between 1848 and 1864 has loads of Towey families in Roscommon, the next county to Sligo, and Mayo [also adjacent to Sligo]. See here and search for just the name Towey + All counties: http://www.failteromhat.com/griffiths.php

There are Goldie people in County Antrim in the above.

DS

PS: Would that be Hulme Hall in Port Sunlight by any chance? Great memories of that place. Annual School 'Speech Day', etc.

[PJLong]

Many thanks for that link DS....I'm on to it!!! The folk at Sligo Heritage tried with every possible variation on my Towie - and there were MANY! Leads me to think they perhaps weren't from Sligo as it is now! I'm wary of Goldie not being the way the name was spelt - heard tales of enumerators and officials writing down what they "thought" they heard! Hence Patrick being recorded as Gourlay when he married!

Yes! Hulme Hall Port Sunlight......5/10 mins down the road from our house. I adored the village as a kid......though the swimming pool wasn't a touch on my then local....New Ferry! Port Sunlight is still a beautiful village in my eyes! I came away with three smelly old first edition books for hubby.....nowt for me!

Cheers, Pauline.

[dickiesam]

Hi Pauline,
Re Sligo and adjacent counties. Many parish boundaries crossed county boundaries so could include bits of two or even three counties. The original division of land was based on Baronies, not counties [an English imposition!] I believe. http://www.ballybegvillage.com/land_division.html

If you are heading into Irish research I strongly recommend 'Tracing your Irish Ancestors' by John Grenham. Probably costs around £15 in today's money but well worth it.

The third edition is up on Google books if you'd like a taster...
http://books.google.ie/books?id=ATRlo07 ... &q&f=false

DS

PS: New Ferry Baths! My dad used to go off the top board there, showing off his swallow dive and pike with double twist or somersault!

[PJLong]

Can't see me getting much done tomorrow....too much Irish swatting to do! I have that book....but only realised when I read your post. Doh! Cor, it's a thick one (3rd ed too) That will be my bedtime reading for a fair few weeks!
I WILL get to the bottom of my Irish beginnings! Must admit to fancying a trip over to that stunning looking west coast! I'm hoping to find an even more precise place of birth for Helen Towie when the 1911 Scotland census is released in April. Helen didn't die until 1919. Maybe I can also track down the other two Goldie brothers as they were younger than the already deceased Patrick (1909) and Michael (1905) Fingers crossed.
Off to watch the navy helping out in St Lucia after the hurricane hit last October.....we were there at the time for our daughter's wedding! Messy!
Many thanks for so much info and so many places to hunt DS.
Pauline.

[MaryA]

What would we do without our resident Irish blue eyed boy

[dickiesam]

What would we do without our resident Irish blue eyed boy

Now how did you know I have blue eyes?

[MaryA]

It's the Irish in you!

[PJLong]

An absolute mine of info - what a star!

[Tina]

Isn't he just P.J

Well done D.S

Tina

[PJLong]

Oh my.....bedtime reading will never be the same again! Townlands etc? Soooo many different do's and don'ts! I'm going to have to re-read last night's chapter when I have a few brain cells on board. True what they say...."You learn something new every day"!!!
In future I'm going to refer to DS as The Professor!

[PJLong]

Dear Professor!
Today I am strongly thinking my Towie and Goldie families WERE from the north....I have spent an arm and a leg going through births for Towie/Tuohy/Tohy/Towey etc on that fab site.....Irish Family History. I searched for each of the 6 Towie girls said to be born in Sligo - not one did I find in a ten year possible time span! No Goldie anywhere in the south!
Why would they say Sligo? Would they not want folk to know they were from the north at that time (1851) There's quite a few of them in Dumbarton - Towies - saying they came from Sligo on the census? Shall have to have a rest!

[dickiesam]

Dear Professor!
Today I am strongly thinking my Towie and Goldie families WERE from the north....I have spent an arm and a leg going through births for Towie/Tuohy/Tohy/Towey etc on that fab site.....Irish Family History. I searched for each of the 6 Towie girls said to be born in Sligo - not one did I find in a ten year possible time span! No Goldie anywhere in the south!
Why would they say Sligo? Would they not want folk to know they were from the north at that time (1851) There's quite a few of them in Dumbarton - Towies - saying they came from Sligo on the census? Shall have to have a rest!

In common with a lot of Irish [particularly from the West] who found it quite difficult to be understood in England, let alone Scotland, they would probably have had Irish as their first language and a strong almost unique area accent. Their English may have been fairly limited, so far easier to say they were from simply Sligo than Belmullet, Garthleahilla, Carrownamadda, Inishcrone or Killala, etc.

They may have been born in a townland or parish on or just across the Sligo border but administered in another county. Counties Leitrim, Roscommon, Mayo and Donegal all have a common border with Sligo.

DS

[PJLong]

Cheers D.S.
I'm going to have another hunt tonight! Shall take in those counties mentioned. I remember reading somewhere (long time ago) that Irish folk stuck with those from "home" when they moved over the sea......so may look at others in Dumbarton. There may just be someone who gave a townland in Ireland!!!! I reckon the names definitely changed due to misunderstanding of accents!
Off to the zoo today so will take a notebook in case I get any inspiration whilst walking (for miles....and miles....and miles!)
Many thanks,
Pauline.

[dickiesam]

Hi Pauline,
Before you go spending the rest of the housekeeping in the hunt for ancestors....

I know you are looking at a time at least 50 years earlier but it might be worthwhile getting a picture of the sort of spread, county-wise, these two names had in the 1901 Irish census. Typing in just the surname, all counties, no forenames, no age and both genders, produces...

1) Goldie = 47 hits, 3/4s of them in Antrim and Down up in the wee North. There are 10 in my county of Wexford and 4 in Cork.

2) Towey = 882 hits! Over 500 in County Roscommon, over 200 in Mayo, and the rest more or less in Sligo.

By noting the townlands you can get a good idea of family groupings in each county.

Hope this helps..

DS

[PJLong]

Aha....another string to the bow! Every little bit of advice is being taken on board. I'm still wary of the actual names! When Patrick Goldie married Helen Towie in 1865 (Dumbarton) he's recorded as "Gourlay". Though he's Goldie from then on! A witness is Thomas "Gourly". I suspect he's a brother. Younger brother, James, is witness to older brother Michael's marriage in the same year (4 months earlier) Both names clearly GOLDIE. Same church - same priest!
Somewhere I have a book with old maps of Ireland......wish I knew where I'd put it! The internet is a blessing with so many things but I like to pore over old maps in a comfy chair!
Shall have a session after the footy tonight.
Thank you so much for all your help on this topic D.S. Wish I could give something in return .....maybe when I get to the bottom of this lot I'll have picked up hints to pass on to others! If only our dear ancestors could see the headaches they produce!!!!

[PJLong]

Whoop whoop....a small breakthrough (of sorts)
I have my Towies on the 1851 Dumbarton census as "visitors" at the home of Daniel Towie and his wife May Gillin. I gave some thought to this Daniel being a relation of James Towie. All present on the census are born - Sligo!
So I've mooched about for a few days and today - a small breakthrough (I think!) Found on the Family History ....FREE site:

Christened 1843 MARIA TUOHY at Roman Catholic, Drumcliff and Magherow, Sligo, Ireland.
Parents: Daniel Tuohy and Maria Gillan!
Indexing project C70173-1
System origin IRELAND - ODM
Source File Number 989735.
Way too much of a coincidence? Am I okay to get a wee bit excited?

[dickiesam]

I have to agree it's a definite possibility.
Tuohy could sound like Towie wit de rite aksen! And Towie may have been pronounced as in 'tow-path' not as in towel. Tuohy is usually 'two-ee', silent h. There's also Tuoghy, also too-ee.

Could yet be a coincidence, but I'd get excited about it.

DS