James Howard 1800,s

[juno]

Hi I have been trying to trace my great grandfather who was married at Walton Parish Church in 1873.

I have a number of Certificates but I am still having difficulty tracing him in Census records as I have not been able to trace where he was born or a year of birth.

The information I have is as follows:

Wedding Cert. Date: 24th February 1873
Groom James Howard of full age Bachelor
Railway Porter Kirkdale
Father John Howard Railway Porter
Bride Elizabeth Wainwright of full age Spinster Walton
Father James Wainwright Carter

Elizabeth Wainwright was born in 1840 to James Wainwright and Catherine

Birth Cert. of granfather John James Howard

Date: 26th September 1875
Father James Howard Occupation Carter
Informant Elizabeth Howard formerly Wainwright
Residence Moor Lane, Walton.

Wedding Cert. of grandfather John James Howard

Date: 18th April 1904
Groom John James Howard Aged 28 Bachelor
Goods Porter of Walton Village, Walton
Father James Howard Occupation Carter
Bride Fanny Elizabeth Dixon Aged 24 Spinster
Lower Lane, Fazakerley
Father James Dixon Occupation Salesman

In the 1881, 1891 and 1901 Census Records the children of the marriage where lrecorded as living with their maternal grand parents in addresses in the Walton area all within half a mile of the Parish Church.

I have not been able to find James and Elizabeth Howard in the Census Records together since the marriage.

In the 1871 Census Elizabeth Wainwright may have been a domestic servant at a pub on Great Howard Street.

In the 1881 Census there is an Elizabeth Howard at the Black Horse Hotel County Road Walton (adj to Walton Parish Church).

I have not been able to trace James Howard due to not knowing a year or place of birth.

Can anyone offer advice on how I can progress my search.

Thank you

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Due to the vicinity of the Black Horse Pub to where the children were living I would suspect, as you seem to, that this Elizabeth Howard is yours, although listed as Married she could well have been widowed and out working to pay for her children's lodgings with their grandparents.

Can you give us the references for the 1881 census for the children with their grandparents so that we can see their ages, were any born after 1881 to your knowledge?

I think it would be worth narrowing down the date after which James might have died and see if an entry could match up, the registration district would be West Derby and there are two entries that could be possibles from the dates of birth given in the index.

[simone]

Hi

Who were the witnessed on the 1873 marriage?

1871 census possibility at 11 Danby Street, Everton

RG10; Piece: 3819; Folio: 45; Page: 34

William Leatherbarrow 30
Isabella Leatherbarrow 31
Mary Leatherbarrow 8
James Howard 21 Lodger, Porter,born Lancashire (written as Lank)Formby

dohhh, maybe not looks like this guy is a Carter by 1881, unmarried, ,lodging at Napier Street
RG11; Piece: 3653; Folio: 50; Page: 38

Simone x

[juno]

Thanks MaryA for your quick response.

The reference is RG11/3687 Pages 26 & 27 residing at 7 St Mary's Place.

As far as I understand my grandfather was the last born in 1875 and with the children all being with the grandparents I had originally assumed that both parents were dead but I could not find the records anywhere.

After much deliberation/searching I came across the records at the pubs in the 1871 and 1881 census's.

I had since assumed that as the Marriage Certificate for my grand parents, John James Howard in 1904 named his father and did not have deceased in brackets that he was still alive at that time.

Maybe this assumption is incorrect but I have seen the "deceased" comment on other certificates.

From 1904 to 1911 inclusive there were 4 deaths in West Derby, 2 in Prescot and 2 noted in Ormskirk but none that appear to be a conclusive solution.

[juno]

Hi Simone

The witnesses to the marriage in 1873 were

John Wainwright - brother

Ann(i)e Wainwright - sister

Thanks

[MaryA]

The question of whether "deceased" is marked on a certificate has been discussed many times and there really is no definitive answer. If the word has been entered then presumably the father is dead but if it has been missed off, it might just be that the question wasn't asked and the occupation been filled in as if he were still living.

I was thinking of an earlier death - prior to 1881, which is why the children were with their grandparents and mother working to support them. Unfortunately probably the only way of being certain is from the death certificate, unless you can find a grave.

Do you know if they were RC or C of E.

[juno]

Hi MaryA

They were married in Walton Parish Church which is C of E.

As far as I am aware the family has always been C of E.

Cheers

[MaryA]

Pity we don't have any clues as to age, but I would suggest these deaths be investigated

James Howard
Q4 1876 West Derby 8b 254 age 38
and
Q3 1880 West Derby 8b 339 age 37

All others seem to be way to old - not that it couldn't be him, but he's more likely to be younger when he's not long married, or a child.

[juno]

Hi MaryA

My first consideration was that both had died, however, I only recently found the 1881 Census reference for Elizabeth Howard.

I have ordered copies of the two death certificates should know one way or the other by next weekend.

There are a toral of 23 deaths for James Howard (West Derby) between 1876 and 1919. Could get expensive.

Thanks for you help.

[MaryA]

I'm sorry, I know how expensive they can get, but my gut feeling is that he has died before 1881 and that's how I narrowed it to only the two.

Wondering what happened to Elizabeth later, have you found anything about her?

[juno]

Hi MaryA

The cost of the cert's is what it is and with the limited information about age and place of birth I have always known it was not going to be an easy problem to solve.

Lets hope you are correct.

The amount of time I have spent already trying all sorts of options is not insignificant.

I have recently come across a relative on my mothers side that I never new existed and as I grew up we did not live more than two miles apart.
Life is strange for some of us.

Thanks for your help so far.

I will let you know the results of the two certificates when I get them.

[MaryA]

Yes life is strange, only doing FH research did I discover that my grandparents had both been married before - and I don't think my dad knew that!

Look forward to the results of the certificates.

[juno]

Hi MaryA

The two death certificates have arrived and drew a blank

The 1876 cert was a labourer of the Workhouse, Mill Lane, Everton

The 1880 cert was a police constable, of 42 Edinburgh Street, Everton. widow Sarah of the same address.

Will have to keep on trying.

Have you any more thoughts that may help.

Thanks

[Hilary]

It might be worth investigating the James who dies at the workhouse as very often that was the only hospital that people could use. I believe that thre are some registers for this workhouse held at Liverpool Record Office but they may be in the part not yet open.

I found this info on the Liverpool record Office site

The first workhouse built by the West Derby Union was built on Mill Road in
1838-45. By 1891 it had been renamed Mill Road Infirmary and it later became
Mill Road Maternity Hospital. The records of this workhouse are catalogued with
the records of Mill Road Maternity Hospital (ref: 614 MIL). These include Creed
Register (1870-1939).

If you looked up the entry for this man it may tell you more about him and his family and he should be listed in some sort of death register and again that may give more information. The Creed register would be a good starting point.

Is he stated to be single or married on the death certificate?

Hilary
Ed Officer

[juno]

Hi Hilary

Thanks for your input.

The death certificate gives no indication of either single or married. The notifier was a person at the workhouse, possibly the matron.
I will find out where the records are kept and endeavouyr to go and inspect them in the near future.

Will look at the records for Mill Road and also Walton as James lived in Moor Lane, Walton when my grandfather was born about 14 months earlier.

Old maps suggest that Moor Lane was then different from the present Moor Lane and may have been on the line of what is now Haggerston Road.

I will post the results when I have been able to view the records in Liverpool.

Juno

[juno]

I have been told that the Liverpool Record Office Satelite site in Bankhall may be open from 8th Novemebr 2010 but not confirmed yet. Maybe by end of week for confirmation.

I have been told that the Workhouse records will be available there.

Looks like its going to be a fortnight or so before I can get there.

Thanks


Juno

[MaryA]

Katie is keeping this thread as up to date as she can about the progress at Bankhall. http://liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB ... php?t=9679

Good luck with that search.