William Robert HILL

[colette]

Laurette did you say you had Helen Drummonds birth..going by 1851 she says born Stirlingshire c1808..is that right

There is a Helen Penman widow in 1861 living in Oswald St in a sunk flat sounds horrid..occ Office Cleaner.
this is not far from Anderston Quay were Mr & Mrs Sparling lived, who took in Little Helen.

Joseph & Catherine Sparling had a daughter named Catherine she married John Hannah in Calton 1866, there is a marriage for an Ellen Penman to Daniel Thomson 1865 in Calton, in 1871 they live at 59 Washington St Calton, right by Oswald St and Anderston Quay...she has two children Ellen D age 4 and George age 2

Cannot locate Daniel & Ellen in 1881 but think there son George born c 1869 is living in Risk St Calton with Daniels brother George and his wife Mary Forrester Thomson.

[Laurette]

Oh Collette, thank you so much for all of that. I had no idea that they all lived so close to each other. That's amazing!!

Regarding Helen Drummond's birth - she was born 2 Mar 1812 at Crieff, Perthshire, the daughter of James DRUMMOND and Ann CARMICHAEL.

I have the birth record for Helen Baxter PENMAN:
PENMAN - William PENMAN, weaver and Helen DRUMMOND, a Law: Dau: Helen Baxter, born 17 Sep 1847, Wit: James Keir and Joseph SPARLING - Glasgow, Lanarkshire.

William PENMAN was born abt 1808 Camlachie, Glasgow and died in 1852 Glasgow. He was previously married to Margaret MALCOM. They had the following children: Robert c1832, William c1835, Margaret c1840.

Thanks again

Laurette

[MaryA]

Colette's got the bit between her teeth, you never know what else she might come up with!

[colette]

Hi

I know this sounds stupid but does it actualy say on his death cert born Liverpool (LANCASHIRE) ??? knowing theres a Liverpool in Queensland..just something thats been bugging me haaaaaaaaaaa..also is his middle name ROBERTS..or ROBERT...if its Roberts were has that name come from..normaly its dads mums maiden name or mums mothers maiden name..
Its like there is no trace of him or his folks in the UK..you would think he would be on the 1851 UK census..unless its a case of his dad dying and mum getting wed again, so hes under a different surname on the census..which would be like a needle in a haystack...he wouldnt go to Australia alone as a child, he would have to be with someone..thats why i was thinking the whole family went over..otherwise they should be somewhere on the 1851.
Seems like dad John has always been a Cab driver/Coachman and there isn't one in the UK that fits the bill

what are we missing here folks get ya thinking caps on


xx

[dickiesam]

Hi Col,
I have thought for some time that the whole family went before 1851. And not everyone is listed in the surviving passenger lists, so maybe they slipped through on a missing bit?

[Laurette]

Hopefully I've attached William Hill's Birth and Marriage Certificates.

Laurette

[colette]

Hi

Everything is as you said sometimes another set of eyes helps, i noticed on Rootschat you mentioned on one of the census records for William he says he was born in Farnworth Lancashire..any chance you can put that record on here...

Also do all other census records say born Liverpool ?..I really am starting to think that the birth cert you have isn't your man..youre William's marriage and death ages tally up but this birth is 6 years out, and if it is possible he was born in Farnworth, he would be registered under the district of Prescot..it could be a case of he did not have the Robert added untill his baptism so just registered under William Hill..c 1851-2

I noticed he married in a Presbyterian church..is this religion Non Conformist..if so we will not find his baptism in normal records C of E ..Catholic etc.

Another thing that bothers me is his mums name Helen is mentioned twice on his marriage and his death..this is another reason why i think the birth you have is wrong.

xx

[Laurette]

Hi Collette

Thanks for your thoughts on this matter, I'm up for anything as long as I can find an answer to all of this!!! I haven't had much chance to research today, have only just sat down and had a look at all of the 1851 Census I had for William, and I found the attached, which I think is of interest:
Chapel Croft, Oldham Below Town, Lancashire
William Hill, 7yo grandson, scholar, born Liverpool, Lanc
Charles Smith, head, 63yo married male, Hatter, born Liverpool
Ann Smith, wife, 62yo married female, born Runcorn, Liverpool (is there a Runcorn in Liverpool?)
HO107; Piece: 2240; Folio: 678; Page: 5

Then had a look on FamilySearch and found the following for Charles Smith: born 10 Sep 1789, ch. 4 Oct 1789 St Nicholas, Liverpool, Lanc, Parents: Robert Palmer SMITH/Diana C005996

Then went to Marriage for Charles SMITH and Ann and came up with:
Charles Palmer SMITH/Ann HILL, 6 Sep 1819, Liverpool - M013143
Groom's Race: White and widowed
Bride's Race: White and widowed
(I've never seen that before)
I must admit that there were other (Ann's) but this one leapt out at me. How lucky am I, Hills and Smiths!!!! But I know this may not be the case.
I don't think I'm going to have much chance of pursuing this tonight, but thought I would draw it to your attention as a possibility.

Thanks so much for your help.

Laurette
Amended to include address and reference for the 1851 census. MA