The Murray Family of Liverpool

[Bertieone]

Guys how do a look census details up for a certain address?, I've noticed that some of you have been able to give me addresses for possible relations from some census forms but I've not found any that were living at 48 Prince Edwin Lane around 1900 - 1910, if I did then it would surely confirm my Grandad's parents names.
Lee

Lee,

Go to link and find required reference number for census year and area.

http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.go ... ts_Project

On Ancestry choose census year and in search box enter number in Keywords section. If you choose top search result it will be either the road you require or very close, close enough to have a fiddle about to find it. Its not brilliant but I've yet to find a better way of doing it.

[winstonevertongroovy]

Thanks Bert, just had a good look but there doesn't seem to be any info for Prince Edwin Lane or the surrounding area. Sometime after they were married in 1910 they moved to 18 Cornwall Street a few roads away so I'm searching for that now.

[dickiesam]

Lee,
In the census 1910+1 the residents at..
18 Cornwall Street, Everton, Liverpool are the Fowler family.
and at..
18 Cornwall Street, Bootle cum Linacre, Lancashire are the Minshull family.

I am uncertain about what you are looking for from the censuses. Because they take place every ten years a lot can happen in that time and people can move a number of times. Perhaps some thought should be given to asking if anyone has a street directory for any of the years you are particularly interested in?

I case you missed my correction to a previous post...
There was a Ryan family at 48 Prince Edwin Lane in 1901 and an Abraham family there ten years later.

[winstonevertongroovy]

Lee,
In the census 1910+1 the residents at..
18 Cornwall Street, Everton, Liverpool are the Fowler family.
and at..
18 Cornwall Street, Bootle cum Linacre, Lancashire are the Minshull family.

I am uncertain about what you are looking for from the censuses. Because they take place every ten years a lot can happen in that time and people can move a number of times. Perhaps some thought should be given to asking if anyone has a street directory for any of the years you are particularly interested in?

I case you missed my correction to a previous post...
There was a Ryan family at 48 Prince Edwin Lane in 1901 and an Abraham family there ten years later.

argggh I've just wrote a longish reply to this and the electric went so it posted without my comment!!!! will do it again later.

[winstonevertongroovy]

Hi everyone, hope you all has a good Christmas, I just thought I'd update this thread even though I haven't actually got anything to update it with as such , I received my dad's birth certificate but it hasn't given me any new information and try as I may I cannot find any details of my Grandad & Nin that I don't already have so I'm still stuck in the same place, I have to say that right now after countless hours of searching I'm all out of ideas and ready to give up. I'll see how I feel in a few weeks and make a decision whether to carry on or not in the meantime have a great New Year and good luck in your searching.
Lee

[MaryA]

Thanks for the update Lee, best wishes also to you and yours. If we can be of any more help I'm sure you will come back again.

[simone]

Hi Lee

All the best to you too... sometimes a break is good...maybe it will jump out at you when you come back

Just as an aside however there is a Murray family at 49c Prince Edwin Lane on the census 1910+1. It is William and his wife Alice, nee Taylor, their marriage is on Ancestry 5/8/1906.. his father was William Murray dec'd a freight clerk.. Wonder if they may be related to Peter. Got to go out this afternoon but will try and have a play later

Simone x

[simone]

just putting this here for future reference I have tried to tie up the married Mrs Murray age 39, b Liverpool, with the Howorth family in 1911...

closest I can get is this

1901 census
RG13; Piece: 3482; Folio: 36; Page: 3
Cellar, 19 China Street
all born Liverpool
Margaret Murray 29, wife
Ellen Murray 5
Joseph Murray 3
Margaret Murray 1
Mary A Williams 16 niece

children's baptisms are in catholic records on Ancestry, to Thomas Murray and Margaret Ratcliffe.. A godmother on Ellen/Helen's abptism is Maria Murray.

Thomas and Margaret's marriage also on Ancestry 1895. His father is Patrick Murray a Cooper.
Patrick and wife Ellen on census
1871 all born Liverpool
RG10; Piece: 3768; Folio: 29; Page: 50
101 Fontenoy Street
Patrick Murray 30 Cooper
Ellen Murray 28
Eliza Murray 5
Thomas Murray 3
Sarah Murray 9 Months


I can't see a death that fits for Margaret by 1911, but if she is the one with the Howorth's in 1911, her children are with different family members by then. Thomas is a mystery, although there is a popssible for him in lodgings in 1891 before they marry RG12; Piece: 2922; Folio: 38; Page: 25.

His parents Patrick and Ellen are still around in 1891 at Limekiln Lane
RG12; Piece: 2902; Folio: 19; Page: 32

Here are 3 of Margaret's children in 1910+1 at 8 & 11 Birkett St, classed as nieces and nephew
RG14; Piece: 22158
Charles Field 36
Annie Field 37
Elizabeth Field 13
Dannie Field 10
Julia Field 9
Hary Field 7
Ellen Murray 15
Margaret Murray 10
Charles Murray 2

son Joseph is with his grandparents

RG14; Piece: 22158
at Atkinson Street
Joseph Radcliffe 64
Elizebeth Radcliffe 20
Ester Anderson 26
Joseph Anderson 4
Elizabeth Andson 2
Joseph Murray 12

don't know what happened to dad Thomas

realise this doesn't get us anywhere really but just in case anyone else has a go, saves duplication

[MaryA]

Good for Simone, always covers as many bases as possible.

[Katie]

There's a medal card for private Peter Murray 49524 of the Liverpool Regiment. He was given the Victory and the British Medal.

I have been having a good read of this and I have a record in my database of wounded for your grandad

7th-Feb-1918
King's Liverpool Regiment
Private
Peter
49524
Murray
Liverpool
Wounded

The lists were published about 4 weeks after the incident sometimes longer is it was a major battle.

[simone]

Nice one Katie

You need to find your Peter and Mary in 1911. The Peter son of Peter and Grace is recorded with them in that census and as single. Also Peter married to Grace is not listed as a labourer whilst your Peter's father Peter is on the marriage certificate.

Definitely need Grandad's birth certificate.

So Peter and Grace are not the parents of our Peter then. Our Peter is a fireman so he may have been at sea during the 1911 Census.


Blue

I hope that Lee doesn't mind that I'm still mooching around this post but some thing been bugging me

Just been reading the thread again and decided to look at the 1911 census.

In 1901 Peter is with them as single
7 House 18 Court Prince Edwin St Peter married from Prince Edwin Lane
RG13; Piece: 3481; Folio: 186; Page: 40
Peter Murray 54 telephone wireman, b Ireland
Grace F Murray 53b Scotland
Peter Murray 19 carter
George Murray 33
Sarah Murray 32
Thomas Murray 7
Susannah Murray 1


In 1911 Grace has died, as Peter Snr is lodging, but no sign of Peter as a single man with him
14 Cavendish Street
RG14; Piece: 22168
William John Johnston 52 b Liverpool
Catherine Johnston 46, Dublin
Esther Fox 16 b Liverpool
Peter Murray 68 widow, b Leitrim Ireland, Labourer ( National Telegraph)
Patrick Kelly 42 b Kingstown, Ireland

Do I have the right Peter as dad in the 1911, or can someone see something I can't

The age of Peter is out for the marriage I know but looks like parents weren't too consistant with ages either... also doesn't this one fit better with the military record?

Thanks

Simone x

[simone]

must be right family because
RG14; Piece: 22526
10 Years later - at 19 Clifton Street
Thomas Howorth 49 Carter
Margaret Howorth 45
Ellen Howorth 23 domestic servant
Thomas Howorth 18 carter
Richard Howorth 16 carter
Margaret Howorth 14
Eliza Howorth 11
Lily Howorth 9
Mrs Murray 39 boarder b Liverpool, interesting

Thomas and Margaret married 26 years, 9 children, 8 living.

Simone x

also interestingly in 1896 Thomas Murray marries from Clifton Street where the Howorth's were living in the latest census. He also marries at the same church as Peter and Mary Jane
Thomas names his dad as Peter, a Linesman, which according to my googling is a telegraph worker


Thomas Murray, 6 Clifton Street, Labourer
Birth Year: abt 1874
Age: 22
Marriage Date: 3 Aug 1896
Parish: Everton St Ambrose
Spouse's Name: Mary Jones, 36 Beresford St
Father's Name: Peter Murray, Linesman
Spouse Father's Name: Thomas Jones, Carter
witnesses James Jones and Mary Lawler

Peter and Grace have a son Thomas of the right age b Lanarkshire, Scotland
1881 census
RG11; Piece: 3658; Folio: 90; Page: 20

[Katie]

Was there not a Johnson/Johnston witness to the marriage of Peter to Mary Jane?

Marriage at the Parish of St Ambrose, Liverpool, 15 May 1910.
Peter Murray, 22, Bachelor, Fireman, 48 Prince Edwin Lane.
Mary Jane Howarth, 20, Spinster, 19 Clifton St
Fathers, Peter Murray, Labourer. Thomas Howarth, Carter.
Witnesses, Thomas Howarth, Amelia Johnson.

[simone]

Yes, good spot Katie

Thomas Murray is on census 1901 with wife and kiddies. he is hydraulic crane driver. He gets younger with each census too

RG13; Piece: 3471; Folio: 6; Page: 4.

10 years later, back in Clifton Street at No 4, now a dock labourer. Also at this address is his brother George b c 1871, Glasgow with his wife Sarah and kiddies
RG14; Piece: 22526

[Katie]

Sometimes we have to go around the block a few times before they let us in the Front Door

[simone]

Katie

Know what you mean, hope it's right.. looks all so coincidental.. just got to pin it together

[simone]

Peter and Grace's son George also married at St Ambrose, Everton


Sarah Moorcroft, 8 Court, 11 House, Prince Edwin Street
Birth Year: abt 1872
Age: 19
Marriage Date: 21 Jun 1891
Parish: Everton St Ambrose
Spouse's Name: George Murnay, 37 Prince Edwin Street, labourer
Father's Name: James Moorcroft, whitesmith, deceased
Spouse Father's Name: Peter Murnay, Telegraph worker
witnesses Benjamin Ritchie and Sophia Besford ( a Besford family living next door to the Murrays in 1891
at Prince Edwin Street RG12; Piece: 2944; Folio: 101; Page: 16)

correction to Ancestry for name Murnay to Murray

[simone]

To sum up I think this family could well be Lee's

There is the Glasgow/ Scotland connection that Lee mentioned, through Grace and some of the children being born there..
All the children married at the same church as Peter ( Everton, St Ambrose)
Peter snr is a labourer for a Telegraph company.
The children marry from Prince Edwin Street, except for Peter a few years later who puts Prince Edwin Lane.
The children, after marriage, settle in Clifton St, where Mary Jane Howarth's family were, along with Mrs Murray b c 1872. Maybe this is how Peter met Mary Jane.
(btw, Peter and Grace's son Anthony Carruthers Murray,b 1881, d 1882, buried a Walton Park cemetery)

Still no sign of Peter in 1911, but could he have gone to Scotland maybe?

What do you think?

Simone x

[winstonevertongroovy]

Ooh you lot have been busy, just had a quick skim over the posts,(will digest them properly tomorrow), the info regarding grandad being wounded is very interesting, am I right in assuming that the Peter from Ireland & Grace from Scotland look safe bets for my great grandad/grandma? I have to say I had dismissed this a while back as I was pretty sure my grandads dad was Scottish, interesting. Thank you very much for taking the time to search for this stuff you have got me all excited again now & I'm going to start looking again myself this week, brilliant stuff.
Happy New Year to you all.
Lee

[simone]

Hi Lee

It all looks too coincidental to me for it not to be them. Having said that you really need something to prove it.Wouldn't like you to be barking up the wrong tree. I've been trying to work around the witnesses on the marriages to try and find the proof there, but no luck yet.

If there were any obituaries put in the local papers for your grandad and nan's deaths, names may be mentioned that prove the link
If you are local the Liverpool Record Office hold copies of the Liverpool Echo and other papers, so you may be able to find something there if you roughly know the dates of death.

Have a read through anyway, see what you think. Hopefully some of the crew will pop in and have a look too and offer their opinions

see you later

Simone x