ANN JONES AND WILLIAM BIGGS

[Sue H]

One of the contacts I made thro the Biggs family has asked could anyone help with this, I have tried on ancestry but cant find anything. Have emailed her the sites details and posted the query she sent me

Great Great Grandmother was Ann Jones, she came from Chester and was born about 1804 in Chester. She married (or at least I think married!) a William Biggs and went on to have two boys Joseph and William Henry (father of Edward). I've never been able to find a marriage certificate and I assume Ann and William married either in Liverpool or Chester in about 1841, 42, or thereabouts. She died of cholera in 1849 and the boys were abandoned! I think William went back to where he came from which I think (again think...no proof that he came from Shropshire. I'm really desperate to find a marriage certificate which will tell me the name of Williams father. Ann's mother and father were Edward and Mary

[simone]

Hi Sue

I see the kiddies are 'visitor', servants, in 1851 at Charlton St? can't quite make that out
HO107; Piece: 2178; Folio: 191; Page: 40

Have you found mum and dad in 1841?

Simone x

[simone]

ooh not sure now.. I see there is a Joseph Biggs b c 1844 son of Joseph and Margaret but then his dad is only 35, Margaret 35. May be a second marriage for Margaret

can you just confirm I have the right kiddies in 1851?

Thanks

[dickiesam]

Hi Sue

I see the kiddies are 'visitor', servants, in 1851 at Charlton St? can't quite make that out
HO107; Piece: 2178; Folio: 191; Page: 40

Have you found mum and dad in 1841?

Simone x

Hi Simone,
Is that census reference correct? I am not getting a hit on 1851 - 2178 / 191 / 40.
Don't know if it is me or my site....

[Bertieone]

DS,

Class: HO107; Piece: 2178; Folio: 191; Page: 40; GSU roll: 87175-87176.

William Newman
Mary Roberts
William Biggs
Joseph Biggs

[simone]

yep, just checked it Brian

HO107; Piece: 2178; Folio: 191; Page: 40

[CaroleW]

William was 9 and Joseph 7 in 1851 and the head of HH was Mary Ann Beech widow

William Newman was the 1yr old son of Ann Newman aged 40 b Ireland another widow living in the same household and shown as a visitor

If Ann Biggs/Jones was born in 1804 - that would make her around 36/37 when she had William. It's a possibility that there were other children which could put the marriage pre-1837.

You say you know her parentage so that would seem to rule out a previous marriage.

[dickiesam]

DS,

Class: HO107; Piece: 2178; Folio: 191; Page: 40; GSU roll: 87175-87176.

William Newman
Mary Roberts
William Biggs
Joseph Biggs

Thanks Bert, it's site problem, not a sight problem. Fault reported.

[CaroleW]

When Joseph Biggs married Rebecca Law in 1866 he gave his fathers name as William Henry Biggs occ sawyer

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NNMG-S3L

Here's Williams marriage but it is not online so fathers occ n/k

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NJJX-LQW

[simone]

Yes Carole, I was thinking about other children too...

I can't see them on the 1841 census, together or as definites on their own will have to wait for confirmation from Sue

I did wonder if Ann could be 'Frances' as I have seen a Frances known as Ann before
There is a family in 1841, born in county except for Frances
at Arley Street, Liverpool
HO107; Piece: 564; Book: 12
William Biggs 40 brickmaker
Frances Biggs 42
John Biggs 14
Richard Biggs 11
Alice Biggs 9

William and Frances married in 1836 at St Peter's, she was Frances Rice a widow....
there is a Jones family in the same house, but can't find out yet if she was originally a Jones.


Simone x

[simone]

When Joseph Biggs married Rebecca Law in 1866 he gave his fathers name as William Henry Biggs occ sawyer

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NNMG-S3L

wrong occ for the one I found then

[simone]

scrub that.. Frances Biggs born Ireland is with her daughter Alice Grimes in 1871
RG10; Piece: 3762; Folio: 19; Page: 36 at Epsom St

[Hilary]

There's this family in 1841 indexed as Prag but looks like Biggs to me and an alteration to Biggs has been made

Addison St Liverpool
William 40 joiner
Elizabeth 44
Susannah 12, Robert 10, Catherine 8, Ann and Elizabeth 4, William 3 months

all bn in the county.

Do you have Joseph's birth certificate? What does it say on that for father and occupation?

Is she Ann listed as a widow or wife on her death certificate?

[Tuxette]

Hi, I'm the source of this inquiry and have to thank Sue for posting on my behalf. I'm new here so forgive ignorance of protocol etc.

Here's what I can tell you and I have been researching this for years. William (or possibly William Henry) Biggs married (possibly) Ann Jones. This is the marriage I am keen to find.

Ann Jones was born in Chester C 1804 and died 1849 in Liverpool (I have death cert). They had two sons, William Henry in March of 1842 and Joseph (my Gt Grandfather) in 1844. With other family evidence I have I think but may not be correct, that William came from Shropshire and is on the 1841 Census in Rushbury with parents Thomas and Sarah. They lived in a terribly poor part of Liverpool and Ann died of cholera in 1849 (as mentioned). Given the times and situation it seems likely that William had no work and returned to Shropshire after Ann's death and left the two boys aged 7 and 9 with some people in Chilton Street, which was very close to where Ann and William had lived. Can't recall the street now but will look at files tomorrow.

So my theory is that William and Ann married after the 1841 census, possibly in Liverpool but could have been Chester. I've been searching for years for a marriage certificate to no avail but am told that the Chester records for this time are in poor condition.

It goes without saying that all help is greatly appreciated.

[CaroleW]

Hi

Can you just confirm that you have a copy of one or other of the boys birth certs confirming parents names etc

Births March qtr 1844 Joseph Biggs Liverpool 20 471

Births June qtr 1842 William Henry Biggs Liverpool 20 448

[Tuxette]

Here's what I have in document form:-

The death certificate of Ann Biggs; dated 20/7/1849. Great Howard Street sub-district. She lived at 44 Sawney Pope Street, Liverpool. Was 44 years old and died of cholera. Wife of William Biggs, sawyer. His mark as informant and present at the death. I know she was buried in a pauper's grave but don't have this information to hand at present.

I have a copy of the birth certificate for the first son William Henry Biggs. 15/3/1842 in the sub-district of Saint Martin, Liverpool. William Henry, boy, son of Ann Biggs formerly Jones and William Biggs, sawyer. Born at Carlton Street Liverpool.

I also have the original (yes original!) birth certificate of my great Grandfather, Joseph Biggs, born 22/2/1844 at 26 Bond Street Liverpool. His father was William Biggs, sawyer, and mother Ann Biggs, formerly Jones.

So, all in all, I have a complete picture of this family's short life together but no marriage certificate which will possibly tell me more about William.

[Tuxette]

This is a link (I hope!) to a Google map I made some years ago showing the area in Liverpool and various addresses found on the censuses and birth certs at the time for this family.

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?msid= ... 5e10&msa=0

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum. I hope we will be able to assist in taking your research a little further.

[Hilary]

Have you found either Ann or William in the 1841 census?

When did William die? How old was he?

Just another thought - how do you know Ann Jones came from Chester? She died before the 1851 census which was the first census people were asked for their place of birth? If it's family stories they may not be correct.

[Tuxette]

Hi Hilary

Phew...this is a difficult one, the main reason being that I did all this research about 10 years ago and a lot of it is lost in the mists of time. However I am quite lucky to have a lot of various family papers and using these we found another member of this family, a Mary Jones from Chester. Through a lot of research we were able to piece together her family (from parish records at the Chester office). It seems that Ann was her sister. I am reasonably sure that this is correct.

So no I don't know where she is in 1941 because of the very common name; there are many Ann Jones' in both Chester and Liverpool but I suspect she was probably in Liverpool.

This leads me to why I think that William may have come from Shropshire. Some years back I found an old family bible in the loft. It had belonged to my Gt Grandfather Joseph Biggs (second son of William). Out of it fluttered a page torn from a smaller book. It was probably from a bible or hymn book and was a photo of a clerical man and the caption underneath read Rev. Joshua Biggs. Well this was a revelation to me as I'd never come across him before and after research I put together his whole tree. He was a Methodist minister and came from Shropshire. His tree led me to a William Biggs, single and a farm worker who was on the 1841 census in Rushbury Shropshire with his parents, Thomas and Sarah.

To me it seemed possible that Joseph may well have kept this photo of Joshua, being a link to his father. Following on from here, this William was back at the same place in 1851 and shown as a widower, hence my feeling that he married, had the two boys then Ann died and without being able to provide for them he left the boys with possibly a relative and went back home to Shropshire. He too may have been ill. I also came across some information in a book about this area of Liverpool (the Irish quarter) at this particular time. Conditions were dreadful, cholera was rife, most people had no jobs and very little food. As I couldn't find a death for him in Liverpool he seems to have disappeared and the Shropshire story could make sense!

So................I am searching for this marriage certificate in the hope that it will show William's father as Thomas!