The Murray Family of Liverpool

[Hilary]

You need to find your Peter and Mary in 1911. The Peter son of Peter and Grace is recorded with them in that census and as single. Also Peter married to Grace is not listed as a labourer whilst your Peter's father Peter is on the marriage certificate.

Definitely need Grandad's birth certificate.

[winstonevertongroovy]

Guys how do you do this I'm amazed, what's the secret .............still don't know why I can't find them in the 1911 census, time for more digging.

[Blue70]

You need to find your Peter and Mary in 1911. The Peter son of Peter and Grace is recorded with them in that census and as single. Also Peter married to Grace is not listed as a labourer whilst your Peter's father Peter is on the marriage certificate.

Definitely need Grandad's birth certificate.

So Peter and Grace are not the parents of our Peter then. Our Peter is a fireman so he may have been at sea during the 1911 Census.


Blue

[Bertieone]

One to ponder,

1911 census, same address as Mary jane Howarth wedding cert.

Thomas Howarth with wife and children also has a boarder, Mrs Murray, 39, bn Liverpool.
To old to be Mary Jane, perhaps Peter's mother?

RG14, Piece22526

[winstonevertongroovy]

You need to find your Peter and Mary in 1911. The Peter son of Peter and Grace is recorded with them in that census and as single. Also Peter married to Grace is not listed as a labourer whilst your Peter's father Peter is on the marriage certificate.

Definitely need Grandad's birth certificate.

So Peter and Grace are not the parents of our Peter then. Our Peter is a fireman so he may have been at sea during the 1911 Census.


Blue

Ah don't tell me that , I have to say I'm getting very confused now.

1881 census has Peter Murray, Grace Murray & George Murray all living at 72 Rose Vale but also Thomas & Anthony Murray who are new to me along with Anthony & Catherine Carruthers, Anthony Murray is stated as being 0 years old.

1891 census has the Murrays as Patrick, Grace, George, Thomas & Peter,(which will tie in with my grandad Peter being born in 1883), but no Anthony, also Anthony Carruthers is there but no Catherine. The address given is 88 Prince Edwin Street, I know my grandad Peter & my Nin Mary Jane Howarth lived at 48 Prince Edwin Lane.

I can only presume that Anthony Murray had died and Anthony Carruthers had left his wife.

Problem is that some ages seem to differ from one census to the next along with names, (Peter to Patrick), and obviously members of the household. Once I can confirm the birth date of my Grandad Peter then I will order his birth certificate & hopefully confirm his parents names.

[Bertieone]

Hi Lee,

Catholic Baptism which falls in with Peter's age on wedding cert.

Birth, 3 June 1888,
Baptism, 8 June 1888,
St Augustine.

Petrus (Peter) Murray,
Father, Petri (Peter) Murray,
Mother, Anne Carbery,
Godmother, Elizabeth Carbery.

[Blue70]

The nearest birth index to this man's date of birth is July/Aug/Sep 1888 which appears to be the one for the RC birth/baptism record found by Bert.


Blue

[winstonevertongroovy]

Hi Lee,

Catholic Baptism which falls in with Peter's age on wedding cert.

Birth, 3 June 1888,
Baptism, 8 June 1888,
St Augustine.

Petrus (Peter) Murray,
Father, Petri (Peter) Murray,
Mother, Anne Carbery,
Godmother, Elizabeth Carbery.

where did this one come from, can't find it anywhere?..........have to say getting very frustrated now having searched through dozens of names & records only to find nothing that I can collaborate, (I know I know you lot have spent years doing it), I'm not even sure of my Grandad's d.o.b. now after looking at all the info so don't know how I'm going to order his birth certificate.

[winstonevertongroovy]

I've got merchant seaman cards for a Peter Murray, Fireman, includes a photo, born 24 June 1889. This date of birth does not correspond to any birth indexes for the year 1889. Perhaps he didn't know his exact date of birth? The nearest birth index to this man's date of birth is July/Aug/Sep 1888 which appears to be the one for the RC birth/baptism record found by Bert.


Blue

well I know he was in the merchant navy as was my dad & a few of his brothers & I have Peter's d.o.b. as 28th June 1883 but am willing to explore the possibility that this is wrong.

[Bertieone]

Hi Lee,

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=2180


You will find the card catalogue a great help on Ancestry,

[Blue70]

I've sent a private message.

Blue

[winstonevertongroovy]

Thanks Bert, what's with all this Petrus/Petri business then, I take it it's a catholic/latin thing,(I noticed a lot of other names on the list that had been changed such as Alfredus/Patricius/Henricus), that again would be a big surprise as I always knew my dad's family as staunch followers of the Orange Lodge and the area they lived in, Netherfield Road, was a massive lodge stronghold so not sure if this is going to be the right family.

Replied to your pm Blue.

On another note I've just realised that I had my dad's d.o.b. down wrong but only by a few days so not sure if it would make a lot of difference.......will try searching again

[Bertieone]

Lee,

Where did you get Peter's date of birth, 28 June 1883 from?

[winstonevertongroovy]

Lee,

Where did you get Peter's date of birth, 28 June 1883 from?

I'm afraid I couldn't tell you right now as I've got so many d.o.b.'s swimming round in my head, when I was at my dad's funeral the other week a cousin of mine that I hadn't seen for over 40 years told me it was 24/06/1883, she also told me she thinks my nin's,(Mary Jane Howarth, although it's coming up on my dad's d.o.b. entry as Howard which I know is wrong), d.o.b. is 27/01/1898 but I have doubts about this as well. Should I just roll over & give up now

[Bertieone]

Lee,

Where did you get Peter's date of birth, 28 June 1883 from?

I'm afraid I couldn't tell you right now as I've got so many d.o.b.'s swimming round in my head, when I was at my dad's funeral the other week a cousin of mine that I hadn't seen for over 40 years told me it was 24/06/1883, she also told me she thinks my nin's,(Mary Jane Howarth, although it's coming up on my dad's d.o.b. entry as Howard which I know is wrong), d.o.b. is 27/01/1898 but I have doubts about this as well. Should I just roll over & give up now

Sorry for your loss,

Don't give up until the lumps on you head through banging it on a wall start festering, Tip, always wear a crash hat. Have you got your dads birth cert, are you confident his mothers maiden name was Howarth and not Howard.

[Blue70]

This Murray line is a tricky one. The Peter Murray baptised at St. Augustine RC church in 1888 is not your Peter. This Peter died in 1889 the family lived at 120 Great Howard Street so wrong area really. Was your Peter C of E then? The surname Murray can be either Scottish or Irish and either religion.


Blue

[dickiesam]

Lee,

Where did you get Peter's date of birth, 28 June 1883 from?

I'm afraid I couldn't tell you right now as I've got so many d.o.b.'s swimming round in my head, when I was at my dad's funeral the other week a cousin of mine that I hadn't seen for over 40 years told me it was 24/06/1883, she also told me she thinks my nin's,(Mary Jane Howarth, although it's coming up on my dad's d.o.b. entry as Howard which I know is wrong), d.o.b. is 27/01/1898 but I have doubts about this as well. Should I just roll over & give up now

I get the impression you are trying to do far too much at the same time. You should establish a 'baseline' of known facts such as names and dates of birth confirmed by birth certs, not word-of-mouth or hearsay. I would start at the 1911 census and then work back along one strand at a time. Use a notebook and assign a page for each person you are intending to track thereby obviating the need to remember dates and their sources. I would do this before you start entering data into your computer-based family tree.

Re:

Problem is that some ages seem to differ from one census to the next

It is quite common, almost normal, for ages to vary by a year or two at each census and for there to be differences of more than the 10 years you would anticipate. Likewise, the year of birth indicated in a census transcription is not from the census itself but is calculated at the time of the transcription from the given age. Very few people knew exactly when they were born, even to the year.

Sometimes a woman marrying for the second time will 'lose' 5 years or more from her age by the time of the next census, and a man will conversely add years.

[Bertieone]

Hi Lee,
Good advice from DS as usual.

I done a search, Free BMD from 1912/1940, your father and siblings that you posted,

Birth registrations all West Derby,

Mothers maiden name Howard,

Annie, Sept 1922, 8b 845.
William J, Dec, 1924, 8b 949.
Stanley, June, 1927, 8b 947.
Leslie, June 1929, 8b 989.
George, 1931, 8b 964.

Mothers maiden name, Howarth.

Mary I, March 1915, 8b 869
Margaret, March 1916, 8b 872
Peter, March 1919, 8b 617
Thomas R, March 1921, 8b 850.

Could be your grandfather married twice.

[Blue70]

It's possible your Peter Murray's birth wasn't registered at all this happened to some people. One of my Great Grandfathers who was born in Toxteth in the 1880s never had a birth certificate.


Blue

[winstonevertongroovy]

I've put my chainsaw helmet on now Bert so ready to carry on, I'm pretty confident that my Nin's maiden name was Howarth but will obviously have a look at Howard, (as I said it does say HOWARD on my dad's birth details, haven't got his birth certificate though, maybe that should be the 1st one I buy), the marriage details that I think you found for me state that they lived at Prince Edwin's Lane which was a few streets away from Cornwall Street where I know my dad & his parents/brothers & sisters lived later on so I presumed this could be an earlier address.

Blue - I'm pretty sure they were CoE and I always use to think my Grandad was from Scotland as he always wore a kilt but I've now been told by relatives that it was his dad who was from Glasgow.

Too much too soon Dickiesam....me yes that would be about right. I have started putting facts to paper but a bit too late for my computer based tree I'm afraid......oh well it can be changed.

Just saw your new post Bertie, they were all definitely my dad's brothers & sisters but I am tempted to think the Howarth/Howard thing is just an error somewhere, Mary Jane Howarth was my Nin & living with him all the time I knew him.

I'll order my dad's birth certificate 1st I think then my Grandad's when I'm sure of his details, Liverpool GRO is the place isn't it.