certificates for Thomas Smith 1st April 1900

[Bertieone]

Hi Dawn,

Did you claim Thomas here, note the birth date.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... ren/cs.htm

[dawnelyndadawe]

Does Thomas appear in this collection?

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/data ... 1015-130-e...

If he does which ship is he on and what other information is given?

THis is better
Introduction - Home Children (1869-1930) - Library and Archives ...
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca › Home › Exploration and Settlement

It takes you straight to the search page. I did a blanket search and could see no Thomas Smith going from the Liverpool area at the approx right time.

You say he joined the Merchant Navy (British or Canadian) - when and where was this and how did he come back from Canada to the UK?

Another thought would be do you have the address he was living in 1939 at outbreak of war? If you do you could apply for the information from the 1939 National Enumeration Transcript books for that addresss. It costs £42 and should give, I believe, date and place of birth.

Hilary,
Now it is that type of info national Enumberation Transcript books, anyone know the address to apply for these please.
Good information and another avenue to persue, anyone else with this different type of information i have not thought of would be great
I iknow where he lived from 1930 until 1965 in the same house in shirehampton Bristol so that would be easy

[Bertieone]

http://www.ic.nhs.uk/webfiles/Services/ ... orm_v7.pdf

[dawnelyndadawe]

http://www.ic.nhs.uk/webfiles/Services/ ... orm_v7.pdf

Bert

Thanks very much why did i not as you lot before, there are some very clever clogs on this website.

My grandfather had a council house for 35 years paid rent to Bristol City Council i have even been in the council house to ask for his original application form, they can't find their own records in their archives!!!!

He worked for bristol port authority fo 35 years, but their employee records got thrown out.
So i have done so much homework on this one.

But you chaps are giving me some new ideas.
Thanks so very much

[dawnelyndadawe]

Hi Dawn
In all your wrong certificates, do you have this little guy with mother Mary?

1901 census
RG13; Piece: 3419; Folio: 107; Page: 18.
2/21 Roscoe Lane
Mary E Smith 28 head, widow, charwoman
Thomas Smith 1 son
Eleanor Smith 64 mother in law

tried to tie up a marriage in Liverpool Records on Anc, closest I get is this, age a little out for Mary

Mary Elizabeth Ward 25
Father's Name: Thomas Ward, Boilermaker
Joseph Samuel Cornelius Smith, Fireman, Glover Street
Father's Name William Whitfield Smith, deceased, Mason
Marriage Date: 10 Jun 1900
Toxteth Park Holy Trinity
witness: Thomas? Mason? can't make this one out,
witnes: Sarah Ward

using Tom Nunamaker census calculator for the 1901 census date:-
Age 1 on March 31, 1901 your birthday would be between:
Sat 01 Apr 1899 Earliest Possible birthday
Sat 31 Mar 1900 Last Possible birthday,

which led to me wonder that if this child is possibly your Thomas, and if it is right marriage, could he have been born as a Ward?

haven't tied Eleanor up yet although there are a couple of possibilities on census.

May be another marrige for this Mary which not in Liverpool records

just an idea maybe



Simone x

Hiya love your name!!

Anyhow found this one also and came to a dead end.
They are not al together on 1911, but Ward might be a good name.
I will look under Canadian Home children to see if a Thomas Ward was sent between 1908 & 1912, he might have called himself Smith but really had another surname at birth. That is the biggest possibility. Thanks Simone
We are also looking for a catherine/katherine somewhere as there were two children sent from the family thomas the eldest and his little sister

Well there are two Thomas Ward going into Canada around 1911 but going into Toronto and not quebec/Montreal, there are miles apart.

[dawnelyndadawe]

Hi Dawn,

Did you claim Thomas here, note the birth date.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... ren/cs.htm

Hiya Bert

Yes that me i claimed him about 5 years ago paid 30 dollars to a Percy Snow who is one of the main Home Children researchers in Canada, bit of rip off really
Thanks again

[Bertieone]

Hi Dawn,

Don't you just wish there was no such thing as ancestors

Referring back to Thomas birth, I believe children of a certain age would know their parents names, they would hear them often enough, however, their own date of birth and place of birth might be a bit more difficult. Thomas may not have picked that birth date for himself, as far as I can make out the children that were sent to Canada only took memories with them and it doesn't appear they took any family history or documentation.
What information did you get from the 1916 Canadian census?

[Katie]

From my own experience.

My great Uncle Edward Morris born 29th September 1898 at Liverpool Workhouse, son of Mary Morris and John Bannon (Never married) he was sent to Canada as a Home child in 1912. I was very fortunate to obtain Edwards Records. On his papers for parents a line was put through it, so as far as he was concerned he was a orphan. In 1919 Edwards mum my great-grandmother was writing the the Catholic Emigration Society wanting to know the whereabouts of her son. Edward at the same time was trying to locate his parentage. Sadly the letters never got passed on. In 1960 Edward placed a advert in the Liverpool Echo and located his brother Timothy. His sister my Nan had paid seafarers to try and locate Edward in New York were he ended up, sadly she died and never got to reunite with him. I have been able to get little bits for Edward from Ancestry and he has made up a fictitious name for a father.

In 1919 he is at Fort Worth under Edward John Morris. This is available on Ancestry. I also have him going through Niagra Falls.

Just a example of what Bertieone is trying to say.

Edwards story was turned into a 4 minute play for Radio 4 called Writing the Century. I have a copy if anyone would like too hear it.

[dickiesam]

Hello Dawn,
To save you money on certs we have to put some precision into the request. Where does that date of April 1st 1900 and place of birth come from? Is it on a document of some kind and how do you know his father's name? And do you have him in the 1901 and 1911 Censuses? There are couple of Thomases with a father Samuel but they not in Liverpool or Birkenhead. Is it known for certain that he lived somewhere else with a recorded address that you know?

The GRO will do a search one year either side of the year you specify but you must simply enter the year and nothing else when you complete the form. But you need more certain background before you do that. His DoB could be wrong if it is based on hearsay. When and where did he die?

When you go to the GRO site and get to the 'Certificate choice' page, after ticking the relevant Birth or Marriage Cert box there's a question at the bottom asking whether the GRO reference is known. Tick the 'No' box and just enter the year of the birth you are interested in. Don't enter anything else here.

The 'Delivery address details' page comes next, and after that a new page will open allowing you to enter the names of the parents including the mother's maiden name in the case of a birth cert application. The GRO will do a search 1 year either side of the given year. If they don't find the cert with the exact details you specified they will refund the fee.

I will give that a go, i am now ordering certificates that are 1903 just in case it got it wrong. But he could have been born outside of liverpool Prescot, Birkenhead, will they do a blanket check for me, of all districts.

Dawn,
Please go back and read my post regarding the GRO doing 'blanket searches'. Because the search criteria you enter consists of only the year and the father' name of Samuel and nothing else, the staff will search ALL districts in England and Wales including one year either side of your specified year. I suggest you start with 1900, despite your having already purchased many wrong certs for that year. If the GRO do not find a match in 1899, 1900 or 1901, your £9.25 will be refunded.

If they do not find a match I suggest you ask for another search with 1898 as the main year. However, regrettably, I have to agree with others here that Thomas' date of birth, being so precise, may have been a fiction of Thomas himself or of authority when he was taken into care. From what you have revealed so far the first time that date appears is on his Merchant Navy card? If Thomas himself chose the date he may have had a great sense of humour. And likewise, his father's name may also be a fiction.

[dawnelyndadawe]

Hi Dawn,

Don't you just wish there was no such thing as ancestors

Referring back to Thomas birth, I believe children of a certain age would know their parents names, they would hear them often enough, however, their own date of birth and place of birth might be a bit more difficult. Thomas may not have picked that birth date for himself, as far as I can make out the children that were sent to Canada only took memories with them and it doesn't appear they took any family history or documentation.
What information did you get from the 1916 Canadian census?

Hiya Bert,
With a name like thomas Smith 1900 from Liverpool Ancestors, but i have to find out
I am so completely absorbed with finding out who my grandfather family were it takes over sometimes and i go to sleep thinking of different methods of finding out information.



1916 Alberta census he is with Ernest Hitz (great name for research)
As the main householder he does not even give my grandfather a status, ie servant, home child nothing.
He states
thomas Smith arrived 1908
birth 1902 from England

But he would not have collected thomas Smith from a home in Montreal until after his marriage to Lizzie Ellen Barnsley in 1913, then Ernest Hitz was given a piece of land in Alberta 1,000s of miles away from Montreal and he took a helper with him Home Child which was normal.
So it is possible that Ernest Hitz did not know when my grandfather was actually born, nor possibly when he arrived in Canada just plucked dates out of the air form filling.

His wife Lizzie Ellen Barnsley went to Canada in 1909 and came from Macclesfield, so possibly felt happy with a little chap from the same neck of the woods as she came from. Well that's what i like to think and hope
However Ernest Hitz was a nasty man to my grandfather.

Thanks again you are very kind

Dawne

[dawnelyndadawe]

Hello Dawn,
To save you money on certs we have to put some precision into the request. Where does that date of April 1st 1900 and place of birth come from? Is it on a document of some kind and how do you know his father's name? And do you have him in the 1901 and 1911 Censuses? There are couple of Thomases with a father Samuel but they not in Liverpool or Birkenhead. Is it known for certain that he lived somewhere else with a recorded address that you know?

The GRO will do a search one year either side of the year you specify but you must simply enter the year and nothing else when you complete the form. But you need more certain background before you do that. His DoB could be wrong if it is based on hearsay. When and where did he die?

When you go to the GRO site and get to the 'Certificate choice' page, after ticking the relevant Birth or Marriage Cert box there's a question at the bottom asking whether the GRO reference is known. Tick the 'No' box and just enter the year of the birth you are interested in. Don't enter anything else here.

The 'Delivery address details' page comes next, and after that a new page will open allowing you to enter the names of the parents including the mother's maiden name in the case of a birth cert application. The GRO will do a search 1 year either side of the given year. If they don't find the cert with the exact details you specified they will refund the fee.

I will give that a go, i am now ordering certificates that are 1903 just in case it got it wrong. But he could have been born outside of liverpool Prescot, Birkenhead, will they do a blanket check for me, of all districts.

Dawn,
Please go back and read my post regarding the GRO doing 'blanket searches'. Because the search criteria you enter consists of only the year and the father' name of Samuel and nothing else, the staff will search ALL districts in England and Wales including one year either side of your specified year. I suggest you start with 1900, despite your having already purchased many wrong certs for that year. If the GRO do not find a match in 1899, 1900 or 1901, your £9.25 will be refunded.

If they do not find a match I suggest you ask for another search with 1898 as the main year. However, regrettably, I have to agree with others here that Thomas' date of birth, being so precise, may have been a fiction of Thomas himself or of authority when he was taken into care. From what you have revealed so far the first time that date appears is on his Merchant Navy card? If Thomas himself chose the date he may have had a great sense of humour. And likewise, his father's name may also be a fiction.

I agree with you he might have hated his own father or forgot and just filled in names and dates.
I have Thomas Smith 1902 on the 1916 Alberta Canadian census when is placed with a Ernest Hitz, so i can go back a few years then, and also his name is thomas smith. Thanks, like climbing up a tree covered with grease!!!

[simone]

Hi Dawn

His wife Lizzie Ellen Barnsley went to Canada in 1909 and came from Macclesfield, so possibly felt happy with a little chap from the same neck of the woods as she came from. Well that's what i like to think and hope
However Ernest Hitz was a nasty man to my grandfather.

Thanks again you are very kind

Dawne

Have you investigated the Barnsley's. I see that Lizzie was the daughter of Godfrey Barnsley b c 1864 and Alice Hatton, who married at Macclesfield in 1888.
Interesting that Godfrey married for a second time to Emma Smith in 1908 at Macclesfield

Simone x

[simone]

Godfrey with 2nd wife Emma on census 3 years after marriage
Class: RG14; Piece: 23744
at Ackroyd Street, Manchester
Godfrey Barnsley 47 joiner
Emma Barnsley 46 housekeeper
Alice Barnsley 17 sewing machinist
Arthur Godfrey Barnsley 12
Doris Smith 13 step daughter

all born Macclesfield apart from Doris born Stockport.

Simone x

[simone]

1901
RG13; Piece: 3293; Folio: 46; Page: 45
3 Simpson Street, Stockport
Emma Smith 36 widow b Macclesfield
Ethel Smith 7 b Stockport
Doris Smith 3 B Stockport
Eliza Hawcridge 35 b Pendleton, Lancs, boarder


no Thomas, but could she have had him after 1901 and new husband Godfrey in 1908 would not accept him so he was shipped out

Why did Lizzie Bardsley go to Canada to Ernest Hitz, who just happens to have a Thomas Smith in the household, same name as her step mother

Could Lizzie be his mother? If he was born about 1902 she would have been about 16... Was he sent over as Smith to hide his parentage?.. writing my own blockbuster now

Simone x

[dawnelyndadawe]

1901
RG13; Piece: 3293; Folio: 46; Page: 45
3 Simpson Street, Stockport
Emma Smith 36 widow b Macclesfield
Ethel Smith 7 b Stockport
Doris Smith 3 B Stockport
Eliza Hawcridge 35 b Pendleton, Lancs, boarder


no Thomas, but could she have had him after 1901 and new husband Godfrey in 1908 would not accept him so he was shipped out

Why did Lizzie Bardsley go to Canada to Ernest Hitz, who just happens to have a Thomas Smith in the household, same name as her step mother

Simone x

We might be hitting on something from both angles here.
What do you think
Emma first husband was Joseph 1863 Macclesfield they had two girls Elsie & Doris.
1901 census

1911 census at 43 Byron Street Macclesfield there is a Samuel Smith married with a largest family with a son thomas Smith about my grandfather age.

Where did Godfrey and his first wife live in Macclesfield, when they were first there.
Maybe they know the Barnsley, something happened after 1911 Samuel died and they sent Thomas over to Canada to Lizzie as they knew her and the family.
Or they could have known them via Joseph & Emma Smith before he died.
I am slightly trembling here or is it all just a fluke. ADDRESSES now of the Godfreys, and Smith
What do you think Sherlock!!

[Bertieone]

When exactly was Thomas wedding?

Lizzie E Hitz, aged 42, Housewife, Uk Arrival, 7 Oct, 1928, from Canada,

Address, 86 Ackroyd St, Manchester.

Ship, Laurentic, White Star Line.

[simone]

all looks a bit suspicious to me
is Emma's first husband Joseph related to Samuel then

1901 Godfrey is with 1st wife Alice at Openshaw, Manchester
RG13; Piece: 3682; Folio: 16; Page: 24
37 Edward Street
Godfrey Barnsley 37
Alice Barnsley 38
Lizzie E Barnsley 14
Alice Barnsley 7
Arthur G Barnsley 2


Simone x

[dawnelyndadawe]

all looks a bit suspicious to me
is Emma's first husband Joseph related to Samuel then:idea:

1901 Godfrey is with 1st wife Alice at Openshaw, Manchester
RG13; Piece: 3682; Folio: 16; Page: 24
37 Edward Street
Godfrey Barnsley 37
Alice Barnsley 38
Lizzie E Barnsley 14
Alice Barnsley 7
Arthur G Barnsley 2


Simone x

On 1891 census they hard to find as they are called Barnaby not Barnsley

Samuel smith lived at 43 Byron st
Godfrey Barnsley lived at Little street about 1 mile up the road
Joseph and Emma lived it looks like Penfold street not quite sure of that.
We have to link Joseph Smith who died young to Samuel Smith at 43 Byron Street on 1911 census and prove Emma Smith stayed close and in contact with the Smiths so when she remarried she was happy to say go live with Lizzie Ellen Barnsley in Montreal, who had just married Ernest Hitz (she met him there not in England) they married in about 1913 in an anglican church, then got a plot of land and moved thousands of miles to Alberta.
Now there are 2 things we do know my grandfather sang in the choir in Montreal, and he lived most of his life in Alberta. You look at the distant on google maps, it would take you 5 days to get there by train.

Anyhow is it a fluke or have we hit the big time

[simone]

In 1891 Godfrey and Alice are in Macclesfield at 12 Little Street
RG12; Piece: 2814; Folio: 62; Page: 19
Godfrey Barnaby 27
Alice Barnaby 28
Lizzie E Barnaby 4

[simone]

Anyhow is it a fluke or have we hit the big time

hoping for the latter Dawn

seems so coincidental, and maybe it is just that, but Lizzie's step mum is a Smith and she goes to Canada and has Thomas Smith in the family The families are all in same area too
like you say.. need to find a link for Joseph and Samuel... maybe the Liverpool link was just the sailing...

got to pop off now, see you later


Simone x