Catholic confirmations

[valbenson]

Hi

When Catholics are confirmed do they always get another name and would they ever use their confirmation name instead of their baptismal name?.

Thanks Val

[MaryA]

Yes they always take a saint's name but nowaday it doesn't appear that it is used, certainly from the time I was confirmed we never used it as part of our name.

But I regret to say that I doubt you will get a definitive answer about what they may have done in say, the 18th or 19th Century as I suspect it would be down to personal choice.

[valbenson]

Thanks Mary

[Katie]

My Great Grandfather was baptised Joseph his confirmation name was William, when he died his death was registered as William Joseph McCormick. So don't rule out them using their their confirmation name.

[valbenson]

Hi Kate

Thanks for your reply, I have tried to find a birth for my GGrandfather who married and died as Joseph Hart but I can find no birth for him. He had brothers called Michael Morris born 1848 and Morris born 1850, plain Morris died in 1851, but Michael Morris I can find no trace of after 1851 census, and Joseph appears in 1871 aged 16 living just with his Mum. So did Michael become Joseph????

Thanks again

Val

[MaryA]

Have you found a baptism? many RC baptisms include the date of birth, it might help pin him down.

[valbenson]

Hi Mary

Thanks for reply, sorry not as yet found a baptism I keep trying

Regards

Val

[MaryA]

Can you give the details of the censuses you have them in, including references, I don't see Joseph in the 1871 in Liverpool to pin him down and we don't have his mum's name.

Perhaps also the details from his marriage certificate would be useful.

[valbenson]

Hi Mary

In 1851 the family where living at 1 Sumner St Liverpool, Morris the father 27 born Ireland, Ann the mother 26 born Ireland, Michael 2 born Liverpool and Morris 7 months born Liverpool. Their surname was spelt HEART not HART which is how it has been spelt everywhere else Ref Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 2177; Folio: 656; Page: 1; GSU roll: 87172-87174.

Although it says the children were born in Liverpool Michael was born in Wigan according to Lancs BMD Ann's maiden name was given as Maigher although I have it as Maher from Morris Jnr birth cert, I'm assuming they are pronounced the same? My Aunt told me he was born in Wigan but she also told me he died from Gangerene after being kicked by a horse, but according to his d/c it was a stroke.

In 1871 Ann & Joseph were living in Birkenhead Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 3744; Folio: 45; Page: 32; GSU roll: 842135. Ann is spelt with an 'e' but Joseph's occupation is given as plumber which is correct,his age was given as 16
putting his birth as 1855
He married at the Chapel of the Immaculate Conception of Our Lady in 1875 just giving his age as full, he gave his address as 64 Angela St West Derby. When he died in 1928 his age was given as 76 putting his birth as 1852

Thanks for your interest

Regards
Val

[MaryA]

If you don't already have it there is a baptism at
St Albans
Maurice Hart born 8 June and baptised 7 July 1850
Parents Maurice Hart and Ann
Godparents Patrick Hart and Catherine Fitzpatrick
Address Lightbody Street
Does this match the date of birth you have from the certificate? if so it will give a guide to the date they moved from Wigan.

one at St Anthony's for
birth 26 June, baptism 10 July, 1853 - Ann Hart, parents Morris and Ann
Godparents John Connor, Margaret Curry
Address Hopwood Street.

Also at St Albans
Margaret Hart (transcribed Hash) born 5 December and baptised 16 December 1855
parents Morris Hart and Ann
Godparents Peter Tyrrell and Ann Gorman
Address Padget Street

Just in case it's helpful, perhaps a sister to Maurice Hart the father, there is a baptism entry at St Anthony's for
birth 13 May, baptism 22 May 1859 for Terentius McKeown - parents Michael and Anna (nee Hart)
Sadly the bottom of the page is very badly torn but the godparents looks as though they could be a male Byrne and possibly an Ann, but I couldn't swear to it.

I only mention that one because of it taking place in St Anthony's, although there are others with the mother's maiden name being Hart but in other churches.

Sadly in these cases it didn't confirm the mother's maiden name, but I would suspect that Maigher and Maher would be the same, written down how they sounded.

His age on death certificate would have been given by, presumably a family member, who have given best guess, so can't be taken for granted for accuracy, however it could be an indication that he may have also been born in the Wigan area, and been older than Maurice, but I'm suspecting this wouldn't be the case because of his age in the 1871 census.

Do you have a date of death for Maurice senior? Is it the burial for 25 April, 1858 in St Anthony's, address Lincoln Street, age 33? If so I'm surprised there is no other baptism in St Anthony's for another Hart child about 1855 ish.

[valbenson]

Hi Mary

Yes those dates for the infant Morris are correct and when he died in April 1851 they where still in Liverpool. I had the dates for Ann she died in 1856, but Margaret is a new person to me so that is interesting perhaps I can find her in the census for 1861 or had she died as well maybe. Yes Morris snr did die in 1858 and was buried at St Anthony's.

I am wondering if perhaps Ann & Joseph went back to Ireland after Morris snr died and then came back again. I don't know when she originally came over or if she and Morris married in England, or if she had other family here.

Thanks again for your interest and finding a new family member for me.

Regards

Val

[MaryA]

I'm only sorry not to have been able to discover a definitive answer to your original query. It's certainly a possibility that she went back to visit family in Ireland, it was common then.

There was an entry in the 1861 census that would have fitted Ann, a cook living at the Royal Waterloo Hotel, Great Crosby, but claiming to be single, and of course no children, in which case I would have expected to find one in a school somewhere but didn't.

Oh dear, I've just come across the two burials, both on the same sheet, bless her the mother must have been heartbroken.

St Anthony's
19 October 1856 - Ann Hart, Paget Street, 3 years
21 October 1856 - Margart Hart, Paget Street 9 months

[valbenson]

Hi Mary

I knew that Ann had died in 1856 as the result of being scalded, I wonder if Margaret died as a result of the same accident, although the clipping I have of the inquest doesn't mention it. Poor woman life was very very hard in those days. I think I will send for Margaret's d/c there might be a clue on it.

Thanks again for all your help

Regards

Val