Place in County Down, Ireland

[Cannell_in_USA]

I have been trying to decipher the birth place of my great great grandfather from the census records. Ancenstry has it listed as Noehgown and 1911census.co.uk has it listed as Wochyork. I've tried googling both of those and nothing and also looked at a list of towns in County Down to see if anything jumps out. Anyone care to take a look at the census record and see if you can figure it out?
Its John Porter born 1841 and aged 70 on the 1911 census . Street address is 13 Chatsworth street, Liverpool.
Registration District: West Derby. Sub district: West Derby Western. ED 41 page 107

Thanks in advance for any help

[erika]

Hi

That's a really tricky one and I certainly couldn't find anything to match either

All I can think of is that it is the name of the house/farm/property where he was born and not an actual place name. I had a similar thing for a relative born in Wales and they just gave the name of the house and the county!!!

Maybe someone else will come up with an idea, Dickiesam is the one you need.

Good searching

[MaryA]

We need to see it, it might strike a chord with somebody, however, it could well be a Townland rather than a town or village and so rather obscure.

Also thinking that John Porter may well have been illiterate, I'm not convinced that the signature on the bottom of the page is in the same handwriting as the rest of the page, and even if it is, it would depend on whether he knew the spelling of the place - it could be something like Knocknagore.

[dickiesam]

No hits for a wild card search of townlands and placenames in Co Down. Then a wild card search for a parish was zero until I tried N%h% [the only 2 letters I was reasonably sure of]. Got one hit: Naghan, Co Down - civil parish of Loughinisland in the Poor Law Union of Downpatrick.
http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/placenames/
You must use % instead of * for wild card searches on this site's search engine.

Could well be that a low level of literacy meant that John Porter could not write the name of the place correctly or the entry was made by a third party with a mishearing of the word. It would have had a different pronunciation to what it appears in English. The gh would be as in Lough and Loch, not as in 'rough'.

[ceratonia]

First part could be either Knock or Lough/Loch - both reasonably common ways for placenames to start. Knockgorm would be a possibility? Are there any images from earlier censuses?

I have a similar experience. One of my ancestors put Ireland as his birthplace on the 1851 census. His military record variously gives Ballymuck, Ballycormick and Ballymccormick (all in county down) as his birthplace, all with varying degrees of legibility. His lancashire police record says Bridge End near Belfast in nice clear writing - but can't see how to match that with any of the Ballysomethings. Found the following list quite useful when deciphering the records:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_to ... ounty_Down

[dickiesam]

First part could be either Knock or Lough/Loch - both reasonably common ways for placenames to start. Knockgorm would be a possibility? Are there any images from earlier censuses?
Found the following list quite useful when deciphering the records:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_to ... ounty_Down

By Jove Ceratonia, I do believe you have cracked it!
Stupid of me not to search on Kn.
Just did and got this: Knockgorm, Co Down - civil parish of Garvaghy - Poor Law Union of Banbridge.

See its location here: http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/fuse ... ounty=Down

[Cannell_in_USA]

Many thanks to all !! I've started to look at the Irish information available and would be interested to hear of anyones successes in tracing back. Looks like a big uphill climb ahead !

[dickiesam]

Many thanks to all !! I've started to look at the Irish information available and would be interested to hear of anyones successes in tracing back. Looks like a big uphill climb ahead !

According to the Property Valuation of Ireland carried out between 1847 and 1854, usually referred to as the Griffiths Valuation, County Down had 97 Porter households [14.8% of all Co Down households]. It was second only to Co Donegal with 119 [18.1%], the most in Ireland.

I assume you have John back to at least his marriage? When, where and whom did he marry abt 1874? [year from last census] If yes, do you have his father's name and occupation?

Had a browse through the censuses and it seem he may have married at least twice? I think I found him in 1881 with a wife Mary Jane [bn Cheshire abt 1843]. RG11 - 3707 - 6 - 6.

But he might be a widower in 1871. RG10 - 3846 - 119 - 2.

[Cannell_in_USA]

I was a bit confused about your reference to 1874 census. Is that available online?

What I have is that John Porter married Mary Jane Baker (nee Jones) in 1873 in Liverpool. From what I am able to determine, they were both widows/widower. His father is listed as Martin Porter, deceased with occupation 'Porter' (of course!). It appears that Mary Jane brought 2 children to the marriage (Charles J and Mary Sophia) and since Susanna Porter is listed on the 1881 census (and not on the 1871 with Mary Jane Baker), I can only assume that Susanna was from John Porter's first marriage. I cannot find John Porter in the 1871 census in the UK at all so I was thinking that maybe he came over after the death of his 1st wife but Susanna's birthplace is listed as Liverpool on all the census records although I can't find a record of her birth yet.

What I was able to find after the Knockgorm revelation was a John Porter marrying Susanna McBurney in 1862 (which certainly fits date wise and also has the Susanna link I suppose) but the father of John is listed as Bartley Porter who was a Weaver. So I think it is just coincidence.

[dickiesam]

I was a bit confused about your reference to 1874 census. Is that available online?

There was no census in 1874. What I meant to imply was that John Porter had in the last available census mistakenly answered the question intended for married women and entered that he had been married for 37 years. Deducting that from the census year gives 1874. He also says he had 5 children from that marriage of three of whom had died, while two were still living.

[dickiesam]

Re 1871...
This is a candidate for John...
PORTER, John - Head - Widower - 30 - 1841 - Railway porter - Ireland
PORTER, Jane Ann - Dtr - 8 - 1863 - Ireland
PORTER, Mary - Dtr - 4 - 1867 - Ireland
PORTER, Wilson - Head - 45 - 1826 - Ireland
PORTER, Martha - Wife - 40 - 1831 - Ireland
PORTER, Martha - Dtr - 20 - u/m - 1851 - Ireland
Address: 13 Edgeware Street, West Derby, Liverpool
RG10 - Piece: 3846 - Folio: 119 - Page: 2

This indicates John may have had a brother Wilson Porter? And John arrived in Liverpool during or after 1867.

If Mary Porter [dtr] gives a better place of birth in Ireland in a later census, we should be able to find her birth in the Civil register from 1864 on.

[Cannell_in_USA]

Thanks Dickiesam - I think that is is. I was able to find Jane Ann as a servant aged 18 in 1881 so that probably explains why she wasn't on the 1881 census with John and Mary Jane Baker. Still need to find daughter Mary. Susanna was probably born after the 1871 census was taken - the date sure fits as she is listed as 10 in 1881 with John and Mary Jane Baker.

Must run some errands now and get back to it in a bit. Thanks for this new lead - appreciate it !!! Will keep you posted.

[Bertieone]

Hi,

Susanna's Porter,Birth,

Registered, 1869, Dec Qtr, West Derby, 8b 299.

Free BMD.


Bert

[Bertieone]

1901 census,

37 Uxbridge St, Liverpool.
John Porter, Head, 60, Railway Porter, County Down, Ireland.
Mary Jane, wife, 58, Chester,
J A, Son, 27, Railway Porter, Liverpool.
Agnes, dau, 20, Cook, Liverpool.
Alfred, Son, 10, Liverpool.

Rg 13, Piece 3493. Folio 162, Page 17.



Bert

[Bertieone]

Marriage?

Susanna Porter, Thomas Algro. West Derby, Dec Qtr, 1889, 8b 693. Transcribed on following census as Algeo.


John Alfred Porter, baptism,
April 12, 1874, Edge Hill, St Chatherines,

John Porter, Railway Porter, Mary Jane Porter,
Edgeware St,


Bert

[Bertieone]

Theory time,

Can't find Susanna so far, 1871 census,
if this is her, Registered, 1869, Dec Qtr, West Derby, 8b 299, birth, only one that comes up born in West Derby, Liverpool, between 1867/71. At the time of the census she could be as young as 15 months old, perhaps living elsewhere following the possible death of her mother, Childbirth??

Susannah Porter, aged 29, Registered Dec Qtr 1869, West Derby, 8b 266.


Bert

[dickiesam]

Susanna Porter...
I believe she was registered with her mother's former married name of Baker. Mary Jane Baker and John Porter didn't marry until Mar qtr of 1873.
BAKER, Female (unnamed)
Registration district: Liverpool
Year of registration: 1870; Quarter of registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 9

Not that unusual for a birth to be registered without a forename. Couldn't have been a stillbirth because registration of stillbirths was not allowed until abt 1928.

[Bertieone]

Hi DS,

I would have thought she would have been here with her mother,

1871, 53 Edgeware st, court 3, Liverpool.
Charles Baker, head, 26, coal dealer, Hereford, Wales.
Mary Jane, wife, Chester,
Charles s, son, 2.
Mary S, dau, 6 months,

Rg 10, Piece 3846, Folio 121, Page 6


Bert

[Cannell_in_USA]

Wow - you'all are good !! I think its too much of a coincidence for there to be a Susannah Porter to be born and a 29 year old Susannah Porter to have died. I think I would lean towards the died in child birth theory. The mystery is then that in 1871, John Porter is listed with 2 children:
Jane Anne Porter 8 yrs old
Mary Porter 4 years old

Susannah is not present. The unnamed Baker child is odd though.

Yet, Susannah pops up again in 1881 after John (widower) has remarried Mary Jane Baker in 1873. The people in the household of 53 Edgware Street are:

John 39
Mary Jane 38
Charles 12 (Mary Jane and Charles Baker)
Mary Sophia 10 (Mary Jane and Charles Baker)
Susannah 11 (the elusive Susannah)
John Albert 7 (Mary Jane and John Porter - and this incidentally is my great grand father !)
Agnes Elizabeth 1

So maybe she is living someplace else since she would be pretty young and he already had 2 other young kids. I suppose what this does prove out is that John Porter was in Liverpool by 1869.

I think the Susannah Porter married to Thomas Algro/Algeo is not my Susannah - the dates do not tally and someone else has tracked her tree and the parents are different.

[Cannell_in_USA]

Some Updates and of course more questions.

I ordered both the Susannah's certificates. Birth for the younger and death for the older. I was a bit smarter and had them sent to my mums in Liverpool so I won't have to wait 2 weeks or more this time. Maybe by the end of this week.....

Anyway, I took up the search of the two girls who were with John in the 1871 census, Jane Ann and Mary Porter. I found Jane Ann in service at age 18 and then she married Llewelyn Lloyd McMichan in 1886 at Edge Hill St Catherine (Thank goodness for a more unusual surname !!). Their address is listed as Edgeware St Liverpool and his occupation is Publican. Unfortunately, it looks like Llewelyn died in 1888 after they had moved to Llanfairfechen in N. Wales (which was where he was born). She is listed (as a widow) on the 1891 Wales census as living with Thomas McMichan who appears to be Llewelyn's brother. She has a son Thomas John McMichan age 2.

From all of this, there are two immediate mysteries. Llewelyn's father is Thomas McMichan born 1813. He appears on both the 1861 and 1871 censuses. In 1861 with a wife Gwen (born 1813) and in 1871 with a wife Winifred (born 1821). The children appear to be the same (and ages tally) but Thomas and/or Gwen or Winifred's ages appear to be off. He is Publican of what I think is the Pen y Bryn Inn in Llanfairfechen. I don't seem to be able to find death entries for Gwen who came first or marriage records for either. I guess my question is, do you think this is the same Thomas and it was a case of a deserted (or kicked-out) wife, given the trade of publican ??

The second mystery is Jane Ann's son - I can see a record of a Thomas John (Lloyd) McMichan in the USA (given that is where I am now living I was soooo hoping to find some relatives here ). He is listed on the 1910 federal census as being a step son to a Jane A and James E Hall (I see their marriage record as being married in the US (Rhode Island) in 1900. Jane A McMichan married James E Hall ). Thomas John Lloyd is listed as birth place Wales and there are further WW1 and WW2 enlistment records where he is listed as birthplace Llanfairfechen, Wales. The Jane A seems like too much of a coincidence. However, there is a probate record for Jane McMichan (no Ann mentioned) in 1916 with John Lloyd McMichan being the executor (which just so happens to be the same person mentioned in the probate record of Llewelyn McMichan back in 1888. ). Her address is listed as Manchester House, Llanfairfechen and she is stated to be a widow. I guess there is an outside chance that she could be the wife of one of the other McMichen lads. Was wondering if I am putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with 5 ???

Any sanity checks gratefully received.