18th century engine fitter

[dan the old man]

I am trying to trace the birth of a relative, Thomas Tyrer, born about 1775. As an adult he lived in Wigan and was an engine fitter. Does anyone know if he will have been an apprentice to get this trade? I've found nothing on Ancestry (apprentice stamp duty records) and wonder if he was a poor apprentice. A Thomas Tyrer was born in Burcough and baptised at Ormskirk in 1775. Before I comission a researcher to search the poor records, I'd like to be reasonably confident Thomas was an apprentice.
This is my first message. Forgive me if I've got anything wrong
Thank you

[allanpshepherd123]

Hi Dan

Not sure if there is a link but there is the Tyrer family in Grave Yard Lane Bickerstaffe which is within spitting distace of Ormskirk. Possibly worth a look, might be related.

http://www.fergys.co.uk/genealogy/1315.php

Best Regards
Allan

[Hilary]

Where did the evidence come from that he was an engineer? Was this on marriage or baptism documents? Please could you post more details of his later life as this may help to find him in earlier years.

[Tina]

A warm welcome to the forum Dan.
All the best with your search.
Allan, the baptism was Ormskirk in Lancs OPC address is Bickerstaffe, mother Mary

[MaryA]

There is a "Dig Up Your Roots" day being held by the Ormskirk FHS today, I will try to bring your query to the attention of one of their helpers and see if they have any suggestions, meantime if you could manage to respond to Hilary's queries it would be useful to have more information to give them. Although even the marriage date was prior to civil registration, the parish record just might have given his occupation and abode.

[dan the old man]

I'm astounded. In truth I hadn't expected any replies. Why didn't I join years ago? Thanks everybody it really has boosted my will to continue research. If I can establish a link to the Burscough Thomas then the information about the graves will be invaluable.
Thomas Tyrer died in 1834 before civil registration. His church, St John's RC, Wigan didn't give occupations. His widow's death certificate describes her as widow of Thomas Tyrer, engine fitter. An old e-mail on a history web site states that his son Peter's marriage certificate shows his father was a mechanic. I've not checked - certificates are very expensive. One of Thomas's sons was a farmer. All the others worked in the mines. Most were engineers or engine tenters. They were born between 1796 and 1817.
Does that help?
Thanks again

[dan the old man]

Sorry, it's me again. Whilst cutting the grass I realised I'd omitted an important detail. Thomas was buried in November 1834 at St John's, Wigan aged 59. This is where I got the 1775 birth year. I'm trying to establish a link with a Thomas born around then. The Burscough Thomas was illegitimate, which is why I'm thinking of poor apprentices.
Back to the garden.

[MaryA]

St John's Wigan is an RC church so it is extremely doubtful that he was baptised in a C of E church, your investigation needs to be in the local RC churches which will not be online.

Before 1837 however, the marriage had to take place in a C of E church otherwise it would not have been legal. When and where was he married?

Do you have the baptisms of Thomas's children and where were these and what dates?

[dan the old man]

I've already tried St John's Wigan, St James Orrell, Standish Hall, St Mary Billinge, St Benedict , Hindley.
I'm not sure if 1775 was near enough to the Jacobite Rebellion for catholics to hide their tracks by having C of E baptisms. Especially if the mother was single, and might need to curry favour with parish relief. That at least was my thinking.
Thomas married Catherine Melling at All Saints C of E, Hindley on 23/8/1796. I have no record of a second, catholic ceremony. Their first son, John, was baptised 16/10/96 at All Saints C of E, Wigan. All the other children were baptised at St John's RC, Wigan. They were Robert 4/11/1798. Robert's children were all baptised C of E. Thomas 18/1/1801; Margaret 5/6/1803; April 13/4/1806; Richard 5/2/1809; William 5/5/1811; Peter 21/8/1814; Matthew 13/1/1817.
Thomas lived in Wigan and later Ince. His children lived mainly in Ince and Hindley. Robert became a farmer. The other sons worked in the mines.
Does that help?
Dan

[MaryA]

I'm astounded. In truth I hadn't expected any replies.

You will always get a reply on here, even if it's only a welcome, possibly questions for clarification, and perhaps suggestions, we obviously haven't come up with any definite solutions as yet, and it's difficult at that date, there is not sufficient evidence to connect him with the baptism, although it's not impossible.

I was with Hilary this afternoon and the questions were mainly hers, I hope she will come online tomorrow and respond with some further thoughts, however there is also St Elizabeth, Scarisbrick to investigate and possibly others http://www.lancashire.gov.uk/corporate/ ... =30846&e=e

These are held at the Lancashire Record Office in Preston where you may be able to find any Poor Law Records or Apprenticeships, however those for Wigan would be held in the Wigan Archives http://www.wlct.org/heritage-services/a ... ctions.htm.

If you do decide to go down the line of hiring a researcher please make contact before you do as we could make suggestions for somebody who would be reliable and offer reasonable rates.

[Hilary]

I think you need more evidence as to what he did. My understandingfrom your postings is that on a son's marriage certificate it says he was an engineer. This would be what the son said not what his father said. On his wife's death certificate she is listed as an engine fitter. Again this is what the person who registered the death said.

At the time we are talking about many people just learnt on the job. If he worked in the mines (I see from a number of trees on Ancestry that his children were coal miners) he may have just learnt to operate an engine and also learnt to fit them. I personally doubt he would have been apprenticed in the 1780s/90s for this trade but it would have been something he learnt.

I have an ancestor born at the end of the 18th century, he was a labourer and went to Barrow in Furness then a tiny village. Barrow started developing and then the railways arrived suddenly he's a train driver - no apprenticeship just someone who learnt quickly to drive a train!

I also note from the trees on Ancestry that noone has given Thomas any parents so his antecedents are problematic. The fact he was buried and most of his children baptised in a RC church and his wife as well (if she is Catherine) indicate to me he was RC.

Have you found a baptism for the wife? Where was she baptised? Do the Hindley/Ince connections come from her?

Land Tax records for Wigan from 1780 - 1832 exist - these are held at Lancashire Record Office. By finding Thomas in these you would get some indcation of his status in the town by the amount of tax he paid. You would also get some sort of an address.

I'm not convinced that pre 1834 Poor Law records will be of any help to you even if they exist.

Have you checked this one out

Thomas Tyrer baptised Wigan 16 November 1777 son of jane Tyrer - it's on Family Search

[dan the old man]

Thanks very much for the reply. It's what I needed, an informed, educated opinion. It's disappointing, but it's what I suspected. I reckon that Thomas's sons learned their engine tenter skills from their father. So why should Thomas be different? I won't waste time and money asking a researcher to check the poor records.
I don't have details of his wife's baptism, but it could be at any of the RC churches I listed. The original research was only looking for Tyrer. I've seen the 1777 Thomas before. He may well be the person, but I've no way of telling. I've not come across land tax records. I'll read up on them, but if Thomas is listed it will just tell me what I already know. The family were poor. In 1841 they were living in Broom Street, amongst miners, weavers, sawyers - what you'd expect.
I'll widen my search area and collate a list of RC records. As a last throw I'll get a researcher to look up Tyrers there. After that I'll join the others who have been forced to admit defeat.
Finally, as you can tell from my membership number, I've been in the society a very long time. But this is different. Suddenly I feel I've been accepted into a caring, sharing community. It feels good.
Thank you all
Dan

[Hilary]

I'll keep giving your problem some thought and see if I can think of anything else.

You never know something might up. Many on here have heard of my elusive grandmother I'm hoping one day I'll sort her out so hopefully one day we'll sort out your Thomas Tyrer.

Glad to hear you're enjoying the forum. Please keep popping in you'll probably be able to help someone else.

Just had a thought - I do know someone who's knowledgeable about Catholicism at that time. I'll try and contact them but it might take a few days.