John Smith & Parents George Smith & Eliza Radican/Keirnan

[Ian isle of wight]

Hi all. Hope your'e having a good day.
I rang the GRO this morning and also Anc****y to clarify a name but got no joy. My problem is that a name on a BC for maiden name of mother, could be construed as two different ones. When i try to put in the information from the census's, ie where they came from, its still the same. Bizarre. Other peoples trees are no help, as some go with one, and some the other name.
I'll put down the facts and then see if anyone can choose which path, due to greater knowledge

John Smith b 7 Jan 1859 Ormskirk. Father George Smith.(Profession Baker). Mothers name and maiden name Eliza Radican/Keirnan.
1871 census Derby St, Ormskirk. George b County Down Ireland. Eliza b Kings County(Offaly) Ireland. I have all the census's.
1851 census there is a George Smith married to an Eliza Radican ( Mathew St, Hulme, Manchester) and a marriage which fits.( 17 July 1850, Hulme, Manchester, Vol 20 page 624) Now ive discovered a marriage of a George Smith to an Eliza Keirnon, Oct 1850, Cathedral, Manchester, vol 20 page 561. Because these are the 2 names it could be on the birth cert, i'm confused. Any pointers please. thanks Ian

[Hilary]

Could you post exactly what it says in the name of the mother

ie does it read something like

Mary Smith formerly Jones previously Bloggs

Is there another child in the family whose birth certificate might make it clearer?

[dickiesam]

Mothers name and maiden name Eliza Radican/Keirnan.

I have never seen a birth cert with the former or maiden name written in such a format. Seen it many times in the manner Hilary has posted...
'Mary Smith formerly Jones previously Bloggs'; as well as these formats which I have on certs...
Mary Smith late Jones, formerly Bloggs... and
Mary Smith formerly Jones otherwise Bloggs.

As Hilary suggested best to post 'exactly' what it says in Column 5 of the cert.

[dickiesam]

Do you have the marriage cert to confirm that 1850 marriage?
SMITH, George
Registration district: Manchester
Year of registration: 1850 / Dec qtr
Volume no: 20; Page no: 561
George Smith married one of the following people... MAYNE, Jane; TAYLOR, Elizabeth; KIERNAN, Eliza; or THORPE, Sarah.

Have to ask because the 1851 census only throws up only one George Smith bn Ireland with a wife Eliza in Lancashire and they are both 'glovers' by trade.
HO107 - Piece: 2221 - Folio: 104 - Page: 32.
Address: 5 Barrack Court, Hulme, Manchester.

With regard to that 1850 Randican marriage.. Have I misread your post because FreeMBD only has these for Volume 20, Page 624, Sep qtr:
Marriages Sep 1850:
Atherton John Manchester 20 624
Bailey Catharine Manchester 20 624
Bailey Catherine Manchester 20 624
COLLINS William Manchester 20 624
Cooper Hannah Manchester 20 624
Eaton Mary Manchester 20 624
Jones Edward Manchester 20 624
Renshaw Margaret Manchester 20 624
Smith George Manchester 20 624

[juno]

Hi All

In the 1851 Census there is a George Smith at 3 Matthew Street, Hulme as a Lodger, Occupation Hawker.

Piece 2221, Folio 885, Pg. 27

He is married.

The full household is a s follows

Patrick Redican Head
Ann Redican Wife
George Smith Lodger Age 20
Elisabeth Smith Married Daughter Age 18
William Redican Son Age 15 Single

All born Ireland except William born Gibraltar.

Hope this is of some help as it appears to be relevant i.e. for 'Randican' read 'Redican'

Regards


Juno

[MaryA]

Good one Juno, that might identify which George belongs to Ian.

[dickiesam]

I recall chasing down a Patrick Re(d)dican some time ago. In the 1851 he is a pensioner aged 47 with a son born in Gibralter. That usually 'translates' as military and a Chelsea pensioner ...

Name: PATRICK REDDICAN
Year of birth: abt 1803
Where born: Parish of Aughrin; Town of Elphin; County Roscommon, Ireland.
Age at attestation: 21 years
Attestation date: 18 October 1824
Discharge rank: Private; Discharge corps: 47th Foot; Discharge number: 220
The National Archives reference: WO97 / 619 / 9

But who was the chase initiator?

[simone]

Lancs Bmd has the marriages as

1850
RADICAN Elizabeth
SMITH George
READICAN Elizabeth
SMITHGeorge
Chorlton-on-Medlock Register Office or Registar Attended Manchester CHO_RM/5/158

1850
KIERNAN Eliza
SMITH George
Manchester Cathedral (formerly Manchester Collegiate Church)
Manchester CATH/81/50

[simone]

Notice on familysearch a link with these names in Ireland.. e.g


Bridget Kiernan
gender: Female
birth date: 25 Dec 1877
birthplace: Ireland
father's name: John Kiernan
mother's name: Ellen Redican Kiernan
indexing project (batch) number: C00608-9
system origin: Ireland-EASy
source film number: 255999



John Kiernan
gender: Male
birth date: 24 Oct 1879
birthplace: Leitrim, Carrickonshannon, Leitrim & Roscommon, Ireland
father's name: John Kiernan
mother's name: Ellen Redican
indexing project (batch) number: I05071-5
system origin: Ireland-EASy
source film number: 256040


a couple of others on there also

Simone x

[simone]

1861 census
RG 9; Piece: 2765; Folio: 149; Page: 28
George Smith 30 baker, b Ireland
Eliza Smith 29 b Ireland
Thomas Smith 9 b Liverpool
James Smith 5 b Ormskirk
Jane Smith 4 b Ormskirk
John Smith 2 b Ormskirk
George Smith 4 Months b Ormskirk

[simone]

wonder if this is young Thomas' baptism in Liverpool ... trouble is the entry goes across 2 pages of the ledger, and the second page doesn't seem to be scanned so can't get all the details


Thomas Smith
Birth Date: 14 Oct 1851
Baptism Date: 2 Nov 1851
Parish: Holy Cross
Father's Name: George
Mother's Name: Eliza

[MaryA]

How about you crop the section of the certificate and post it for the crew to see. Instructions to do this here http://www.forum.liverpool-genealogy.or ... =16&t=9817

[Ian isle of wight]

Thanks to everyone for their time and input. Hilary, i will post the certificate. Dickiesam, see Simone for my 2 marriages problem. Yes, good memory, you looked up something on Radican for me and all was good, until i found that i could be barking up the wrong tree. Juno, thanks, that was the one i used to progress with and thought was correct. Simone, nail on the head, this is what has now thrown me.( 2 choses of marriage). The 1861 census is my starting point, where John( my Great grandad was 2).
Mary, will follow your cropping instructions. Have now at least got the other children, as chances to get a different registrars handwriting on a certificate, which i hadn't thought of. Or i suppose, get the other marriage cert too.

[Ian isle of wight]

Here is where you say " why did he do that"? I thought it would be Radican, so when it arrived, i thought, no, it says Kiernan. But if the K was really an R, the a was really a D, and the first n was a k, it all fitted into place. I thought the printing wasnt clear.
Abuse me, i can take it Ian

[Ian isle of wight]

The George Smith marriage that i thought it was.

[dickiesam]

I thought it would be Radican, so when it arrived, i thought, no, it says Kiernan. But if the K was really an R, the a was really a D, and the first n was a k, it all fitted into place. I thought the printing wasnt clear.
Abuse me, i can take it Ian

Hi Ian,
There have been worse mistakes... Definitely Radican!

[Hilary]

Definitely Radican

[Ian isle of wight]

sorry you 2, if you look at the cert, its me thats added in ink to see if Radican was better. If you take that away it could easily be my first thought, Kearnan. ( thats why i was very stupid )

[MaryA]

I hate to say this but if you aren't sure you need additional confirmation. If that copy was from the GRO then you need the local register office copy as the handwriting will be different, in fact should be the original.

Alternatively you will need the certificate of one of the other children to see what that has to say....... or maybe not. Luckily Ormskirk is one of those districts on the LancsBMD site, that appears to transcribe the mother's name for the births.

1853 SMITH Catharine Ormskirk Preston KEARNIN
1855 SMITH James Ormskirk Preston KEARNAN
1856 SMITH Catharine Ormskirk Preston KEARNAN
1859 SMITH John Ormskirk Preston KEARNAN
1860 SMITH George Ormskirk Preston KEARNAN
1862 SMITH William Ormskirk Preston KEARNAN
1864 SMITH Joseph Ormskirk Preston KEARNAN
1866 SMITH Charles Ormskirk Preston KERNAN

Do these match the children of the family you are looking for? Kearnan/Kearnin in each case being the mother's maiden name

[Ian isle of wight]

MaryA, thank you. You have confirmed it. All those children are correct. Also ive found Marriage vol 20 page 561 Manchester for both Eliza Keirnan, and seperately George Smith. I had rushed along a couple of years ago when seeing the first possible match and not confirmed whether there were any other possibles. It just so happened that George Smith married an Eliza (Radican), both born Ireland, as per census info, same year and area, that was what i jumped at. As i know now, its check and double check, and dont deface the certificates Thank you all, you already know your'e the best.