john rogers born c.1861 in Sankey or Bold

[jenny358]

I am looking for information pre the 1891 census (post 1911 census ok) for John Rogers (father also John Rogers). I cannot find any record of his birth assuming the registration district was Prescot. Neither can I find census records for his family.

We have been told he died in 1935.

We also believe he married on 2nd Jan 1882 an Elizabeth Berry of Eccleston.

Any info gratefully received as we cannot move forward without confirmation.

Jenny

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

I need to ask a few questions as we need a little more information, for example the date he was born? Why Sankey or Bold? this question probably relates to the census details that you have ..... which ones?

What evidence do you have that his father is also John? presumably this is not from the marriage certificate as you don't appear to have this.

The proof of who he married will come from the birth certificate of one of the children, you don't have this?

Where he died is as important as when and we can try to search the death/burial records.

Please give the address the family was living in 1911 and also post the details, including reference, of the 1891 census so that we know we are looking at the correct John Rogers.

[MaryA]

I am going to take a guess that I have the right family, but in both censuses his date of birth is 1863, rather than 1861.

1901 - High Street, Hale, Lancashire
John Rogers Head M 38 Teamster on Horse on Farm Lancs, Sankey
Elizabeth Wife M 39 Lancs, Kirby
John Son S 18 Teamster on Horse on Farm " "
Rachel daur 15 Nurse (Domestic) " "
Albert son 11 " Speke
David son 5 " Hale
Elizabeth daur 3 " "
Martha daur 2 " "
RG13; Piece: 3508; Folio: 16; Page: 3.

1891 - 21 Church Road, Speke, Lancashire
John Rogers Head M 28 Agricultural Labourer Lancashire Bold
Elizabeth Wife M 28 Lancs, St Helens
Mary daur 9 Scholar " "
John Peter son 8 " " Kirby
Rachel daur 5 " " "
William son 4 " "
Aaron son 1 " "
RG12; Piece: 3007; Folio: 53; Page: 2

These give us an idea of where everybody was born.

[MaryA]

We have a number of baptisms for the children, luckily the nice vicar at St Chads has noted the exact date of births for the children, this will make it extremely easy for you to order one of the birth certificates, which you can do online at http://www.gro.gov.uk One of these will confirm the mother's name.

It will be interesting to see if indeed the marriage you suspect is correct and if so possibly John is a widower and may have been married to a previous Elizabeth.

Baptisms: 11 Mar 1883 St Chad, Kirkby, Lancashire, England
John Peter Rogers - Child of John Rogers & Elizabeth
Born: 23 Jan 1883
Abode: Kirkby
Occupation: Labourer
GRO Reference probably Q1 1883 Rodgers John Peter W. Derby 8b 521

Baptisms: 12 Oct 1884 St Chad, Kirkby, Lancashire, England
Joseph Rogers - Child of John Rogers & Elizabeth
Born: 11 Aug 1884
Abode: Kirkby
Occupation: Labourer
GRO Reference probably Q4 1884 Rogers Joseph Henry Prescot 8b 795

Baptisms: 14 Feb 1886 St Chad, Kirkby, Lancashire, England
Rachel Rogers - Child of John Rogers & Elizabeth
Born: 22 Dec 1885
Abode: Kirkby
Occupation: Labourer
GRO Reference possibly Q1 1886 ROGERS Rachel W. Derby 8b 479

Baptisms: 25 Apr 1887 St Chad, Kirkby, Lancashire, England
William Rogers - Child of John Rogers & Elizabeth
Born: 3 Apr 1887
Abode: Kirkby
Occupation: Labourer
Notes: R

Baptisms: 9 Mar 1890 St Chad, Kirkby, Lancashire, England
Aaron Rogers - Child of John Rogers & Elizabeth
Born: 13 Jan 1890
Abode: Kirkby
Occupation: Labourer
GRO Reference probably Q1 1890 Rodgers Aaron W. Derby 8b 452

Baptisms: 2 Aug 1896 St Mary, Hale, Lancashire, England
David Rogers - Child of John Rogers & Elizabeth
Born: 20 May 1896
Abode: Hale
Occupation: Farm Labourer
GRO Reference probably Q2 1896 Rogers David Prescot 8b 660

I have said "probably" or "possibly" because of the registrations being in the West Derby district, however when requesting a certificate you actually have the exact dates and also specify that the parents names are John and Elizabeth and it should be certain that you get the correct one.

[jenny358]

Hello Mary,

Thanks for your very quick info. You are on the correct family.

I have the 1911 census which indicates he was living at High Street, Hale, aged 49 (birth c.1861/2) was married to an Elizabeth age 49 and had been for 29 years, making marriage date of c.1882. I have found a marriage certificate for a John Rogers and Elizabeth Berry, age 21 and 20 years, for Jan 2nd 1882 so that ties in. His address at that time was 78 Peter Street, not sure where that is but he got married in the Parish Church of St Thomas, at Eccleston. His father was named as John Rogers deceased.

The anomaly is in his birth place. The 1911 census says Bold, 1901 Sankey and 1891 Bold.

I can now fill in the baptisms for the children. There was 11 live births and I have just now accounted for the 11. Thanks for the info.

So it would appear that he was living in the Kirby area in the 1880s. My husband had mentioned Kirby but I couldnt see the connection.

Best wishes and thanks
Jenny

[MaryA]

So it would appear that he was living in the Kirby area in the 1880s. My husband had mentioned Kirby but I couldnt see the connection.

This is exactly where the full census information is vital as it gives the places of birth of children and so tracks the movements of the families.

Again the census information is important as it gives a daughter Mary born in 1882 - the same year as the alleged marriage - we don't have a baptism for this daughter as it appears that she was born in St Helens - as was the mother Elizabeth at the time of the census.

However, the mother Elizabeth in the following census gives her birthplace as "Kirby" - actually Kirkby.

Questions again
How do you know John and Elizabeth were literate and could they count and do they have the correct number of years they were married. It is never wise to take for granted a marriage just because it matches the number of years, the ONLY way and I'm not the only person who will tell you this, is to confirm it by means of the birth certificate of one of the children.

How do you know that you have only one Elizabeth with confusion over her birthplace? or two Elizabeths, different mothers to possibly some of the children.

If there was only one Elizabeth who wasn't sure about her birthplace, could you accept that she was right over the number of years she was married? particularly since it may well make Mary born extremely quickly after the marriage.

If it is two Elizabeth's, one born St Helens, possibly Mary's mother, and the other born Kirkby, who is the second Elizabeth?

Not only is it good practice to confirm each generation step by step, but if it was me I wouldn't be able to accept possibilities unless I had the guarantee that they were correct.

Have I made you question your assumptions? Your anomaly isn't just the birthplace, but the marriage, if by any chance that marriage is incorrect then you are searching for a John with the wrong father.

[MaryA]

You have overlooked giving us an extremely vital clue - John Rogers has a sister Mary!!

In 1911, in addition to his own children, he has a niece and nephew staying with him 4 year old Elizabeth Whitehouse and 1 year old John Whitehouse, both born Garston.

By a squeak the baptism of Elizabeth is listed in St Michael, Garston, on 4 Nov 1906, birth 27 Sep 1906, parents Thomas and Mary Whitehouse.

Searching for other children to those parents in Garston produces an entry for an Ethel born 3 Oct 1905 and baptised in the same church on 26 Nov 1905.

Ethel is still with her widowed father in 1911. So who is their mother?

Could it be ...

Q2 1905 Prescot 8b 1093 where two of the names listed are Thomas Whitehouse and Mary ROGERS.
Marriage: 24 Apr 1905 St Mary, Hale, Lancashire, England
Thomas Whitehouse - 28 Stoker Batchelor of Hale
Mary Rogers - 23 Domestic Service Spinster of Hale
Groom's Father: Samuel Whitehouse, Shunter
Bride's Father: John Rogers, Labourer
Witness: John Rogers; Elizabeth Ann Whitehouse

It doesn't say that the bride's father was deceased, but he may well have been, it may have been your John who was witness to the marriage.

[Hilary]

I agree with MaryA.

You need one of the children's birth certificates to get the mother's maiden name. Once you have that you can then find the marriage. The one you found may be correct but without that p[roof you could research the wrong family.

Family History involves proving every step with facts not assumptions. Sometimes it's quick and sometimes it's very slow.

Posters on here will remember my elusive grandmother Elizabeth Jones still not positively identified after 10 or so years of searching!

[MaryA]

It does make quite a large gap between John and Mary's ages, it could be that he is the oldest and she the youngest of a family, or it could well be that Mary is a great niece of John's.

A shot in the dark but the places seem to link.

1901 - 35/29 Wellington street, Wavertree, Garston, Lancashire
Richard H Bennett Head M 30 Licensed Victualler Lanc Llandesh ? don't know this place
Elizabeth Wife M 33 Dorset Sherborne
Adelaide Grey Servant S 22 " "
Mary Rogers Servant S 20 Lanc Kirby
RG13; Piece: 3507; Folio: 40; Page: 14.

and guess where 1891 takes us to?

21 Church Road, Speke, where Mary is the eldest daughter of John and Elizabeth, which gives you a whole other mystery. Is Mary actually their daughter? or a sister to John? or even an "adopted" daughter, perhaps the daughter of another member of the family? whichever she is it would seem that the "father - John" given at her marriage is your John and not John's father, and probably the witness is also.

[MaryA]

My head is now spinning and I'm going for a lie down.

[MaryA]

Definitely need a birth certificate for one of the other kids, got to know the date of the marriage - before or after Mary's birth? at least her estimated birth anyway.

[jenny358]

Hello everyone,

Thanks for all your comments which I have taken on board.

I have been going up the generations and my husband's grandfather, Albert Rogers, was one of John and Elizabeth Rogers' children. I have the baptism record for Albert Rogers which confirms the name of his parents, also the dates are on his headstone in Hale church. Also one of Albert's siblings, Ann, who died at 3 months and is buried in an unmarked plot at All Saints, Speke.

I am also aware of the nephew and neice of John Rogers, ie John and Elizabeth Whitehouse, and had assumed that a sister of John Rogers had married Thomas Whitehouse, the children's father. My daughter did mention a Mary Rogers, but I think she forgot to save it on our Ancestry tree.

I have also printed out a marriage at the parish church of St Thomas, Eccleston, on Jan 2nd 1882 which states John Rogers was 21, a bachelor, labourer and father was deceased. His wife was Elizabeth Berry, 20, whose father Peter Berry was also deceased. This date ties in with the information on the 1911 census which says that John and Elizabeth Rogers had been married 29 years and their approximate ages also tie in.

One thing I did notice, John Rogers apparently could not write as he marked his wedding certificate with an 'X'. Having had a good look at the 1911 census where the head of a family is required to sign at the bottom of the page, I consider that he still could not write as it is quite clear that the form was filled in and signed by the same person but the handwriting somehow does not, in my opinion, appear to be that expected from a farm labourer (I have been a census enumerator several times and this just does not seem right). The handwriting seems more feminine.

The 1891 census shows that a Mary Rogers was born around 1882. This is quite possible if John anad Elizabeth are her parents as they married (if I am correct) on the 2nd January 1882 aged 21 and 20 respectively. It also states she was born in St Helens and if I am correct with her parent's marriage, then that is quite feasible as Eccleston is a district (I think) of St Helens. As the 1901 census does not show Mary Rogers living at home it could tie in with the fact that she was a live in servant at the public house in Wavertree

Re the marriage of Thos Whitehouse and Mary Rogers. I think this is correct. The Rogers' were living in Hale at the time and to my knowledge they were the only ones with that surname. Her father John Rogers was still alive and did not die until 1935.

Many thanks for all your help.

Jenny Rogers

[MaryA]

The handwriting seems more feminine.

Yes I suppose it could have been one of the children or even a neighbour.

As you are convinced, by calculation only, despite the possible illiteracy of John and Elizabeth, that you have the correct marriage, without the required evidence, I assume that you do not wish us to assist in looking further backwards for your couple's parents etc.

[MaryA]

The handwriting seems more feminine.

Yes I suppose it could have been one of the children or even a neighbour.

I have the baptism record for Albert Rogers which confirms the name of his parents,

including Elizabeth's maiden name?

As you are convinced, by calculation only, despite the possible illiteracy of John and Elizabeth, that you have the correct marriage, without the required evidence, I assume that you do not wish us to assist in looking further backwards for your couple's parents etc. and we will close this post.

[jenny358]

I can now confirm that John Rogers was the husband of Elizabeth Berry as I previously thought as I have now received a copy of the birth certificate of one of their children, David Rogers, who was born in Hale, the certificate stating that the mother of David Rogers was Elizabeth Berry.

However I am no further on with the birth place or birth date of John Rogers. My daughter has been visiting the records office for Prescot, but I am only able to do investigation on the internet as I live in Spain.

Regards
Jenny Rogers

[MaryA]

Surprisingly, so do we!