Michael Garry

[joannecbennett]

I am trying to trace information on Michael Garry. He was born somewhere in Ireland around 1827, married a lady called Catherine and they had a family. They all moved to the Wigan/Leigh area. Catherine died around June 1860 and he died 13 June 1886. One son, Edward, married Ellen Farrington from Ince. They both died in Leigh They had Edward (my great granddad) on 22 Sept 1892 who moved to Burnley. My question is how can I find out more about Michael, Catherine and their son Edward - where did they live/work, where are they buried? Is there any way I can find out where in Ireland they came from?

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

I have sent a message to the Secretary of the Leigh Group asking her to take a look at your query, she would know more about the availability of any records in the area than anybody.

[MaryA]

Do you have details of the marriage in Ireland?
Can you give the details from the 1851 census, including the references.
Was the son born in Ireland or England, if England do you have the birth certificate for him as this will give his mother's maiden name and help you search for the parents marriage.

[dickiesam]

Hi, Joanne,
I found this:
Death: GARRY, Catharine
Registration district: Wigan
Year/qtr of registration: 1860 / Apr-May-Jun
Volume no: 8C; Page no: 54.
Is she Edward's mother?

Death: GARRY, Edward
Registration district: Leigh, Lancashire
Year/qtr of registration: 1903 / Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at death: 50
Volume no: 8C; Page no: 169.

In 1881 Edward gives his YoB as 1854 and in 1901 says he is from Ireland so his parents' marriage will probably be in Ireland. Have you located Michael and Edward in 1861, 1871, and 1881? Did Edward have any siblings?

[joannecbennett]

Do you have details of the marriage in Ireland?
Can you give the details from the 1851 census, including the references.
Was the son born in Ireland or England, if England do you have the birth certificate for him as this will give his mother's maiden name and help you search for the parents marriage.

No. I don't know how to find any Irish records. I have the 1861 census ref RG9/2782, if that helps? The son was born in Ireland and I haven't got a copy of his birth cerificate. I will need to get one but then I don't know where to find records from Ireland.

[joannecbennett]

Hi, Joanne,
I found this:
Death: GARRY, Catharine
Registration district: Wigan
Year/qtr of registration: 1860 / Apr-May-Jun
Volume no: 8C; Page no: 54.
Is she Edward's mother?

Death: GARRY, Edward
Registration district: Leigh, Lancashire
Year/qtr of registration: 1903 / Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at death: 50
Volume no: 8C; Page no: 169.

In 1881 Edward gives his YoB as 1854 and in 1901 says he is from Ireland so his parents' marriage will probably be in Ireland. Have you located Michael and Edward in 1861, 1871, and 1881? Did Edward have any siblings?

Yes, those details match mine. Edward had brothers James (1849), Michael (1855), John (1855) and sisters Mary (1857) and Catherine (1859).

[dickiesam]

No. I don't know how to find any Irish records. I have the 1861 census ref RG9/2782, if that helps? The son was born in Ireland and I haven't got a copy of his birth cerificate. I will need to get one but then I don't know where to find records from Ireland.

The requirement for registration of BMDs did not begin in Ireland until the September qtr of 1864. For events prior to that you have to rely on extracts from parish records although, that said, Protestant events are on 'official' record from abt 1848 but they are not on online.

There are a number of sites where you can search for parish records, and transcription is still ongoing so the record sets are incomplete. Here's a few...
https://www.familysearch.org/ [Free and view hits]
http://www.rootsireland.ie/ [Free to search but pay to see record content]
http://www.irishgenealogy.ie/index.html [Free to search and view hits, but limited content at present]

If Michael and Catherine's children were all born in Ireland, you should find every one of them in the England censuses up to 1911 to see if there is a clue as to where in Ireland they are from. The 1911 often gives a fuller picture.

[dickiesam]

I have a feeling that unless you have the death certificate for the Catherine Garry who died in 1860 to prove otherwise, she may not be Michael's wife because I haven't yet found any of the family in England in 1861. I think you have to prove that death is or isn't her before proceeding and the cert, if her's, may give her approximate age.

Have the family in 1871: RG10 - 3894 - 107 - 12 and 1881: RG11 - 3779 -14 -22;
The married son Edward and his brother u/m James in 1891: RG12 - 3086 - 78 - 37.
ditto Edward and James in 1901: RG13 - 3593 - 185 - 22.
Michael, the father, appears to have died before 1891.

I think I have James, still u/m, in the last census as a lodger, but he doesn't know where he was born in Ireland.
GARRY, James - Boarder - u/m - 58 - 1853 - Colliery labourer underground - Ireland [county not known] Maybe his surviving siblings may know....

[Glenys]

Mary A has asked me to check out a few local details for you on this subject as I am Secretary of the Leigh Group.
I have used the http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk website to check the births, marriages and deaths in the Wigan & Leigh area as they use the local Register Office references and give more details than the Registrar General's indexes.

The Catherine/Catharine GARRY who died in 1860 could not be Edward's mother as she was only 16 years old. UPHL/7/288. This also indicates that she died in a different part of the Borough of Wigan & Leigh than where your family lives, although she could have been in the workhouse at Billinge at the time. As Edward's date of birth is given as 1853/4 she would have been too young to be his mother.

The lancashirebmd website is compiled from the original registers and you can use the site to apply for certificates by following the instructions. Always check the coverage page to see if the indexes have been compiled as volunteers are still inputting these details.

There is a death of a Michael GARRY at LOW/15/213 in 1886 but you would need to have more details to connect him as being the one you want.

Edward GARRY's birth is listed at WL/44/347 in 1892 which is part of the Leigh area - a similar part of the Leigh area to the LOW reference above.

The marriage of Ellen FARRINGTON to Edward is listed at ROL/26/89 in 1875. The reference ROL means Register Office Leigh which means that the marriage did not take place at a Church of England but that a registrar had to attend or it was actually at the Register office. It could be at a Non-conformist church i.e., Roman Catholic, Methodist etc..

Edward who died in 1903 aged 50 is listed at L/8/353 - another Leigh district.

I'm not able to look at Ancestry at the moment so cannot see any of the Census listings and others on the forum seem to know more upto-date details of Irish research.

I would always suggest using the local register offices rather than the Registrar General's when applying for any certificates.
Details of how to apply are included on the http://www.ukbmd.org.uk and http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk websites.

Hope that clears up some of the details and that you haven't already applied for the death certificate of Catherine.

[dickiesam]

RE by Glenys

Hope that clears up some of the details and that you haven't already applied for the death certificate of Catherine.

Thanks for that info Glenys. It was the absence of the family in the 1861 census that made me suspect I had the wrong Catherine.

This points to the probability that Catherine died in Ireland before Michael brought the children to England. There are a couple of deaths recorded after 1864 that could be her assuming she was about the same age as Michael.

Death: Catherine Garry
registration district: Kilrush, County Clare.
registration year: 1864
estimated birth year: 1824
age (at death): 40
volume number: 19
page number: 211

Death: Catherine Garry
registration district: Mountmellick, Queen's County. [now Co. Laois]
registration year: 1865
estimated birth year: 1830
age (at death): 35
volume number: 3
page number: 507

I had a couple of spare credits for http://www.rootsireland.ie/ and found two possible marriages where a Michael Garry married a Catherine.
Garry, Michael - 1847 - Co. Westmeath.
Garry, Michael - 1847 - Co. Meath.

The latter reminded me of an entry for a Kate [aka Catherine] Garry in 1881:
GARRY, Kate, Servant - u/m - 24 - 1857 - General servant - Meath, Ireland.
Address: 1 St [?] Albert Rd, Toxteth Park, Lancashire.
RG11 - Piece: 3651 - Folio: 116 - Page: 67.

[dickiesam]

Hi Joanne, RE:

I have the 1861 census ref RG9/2782, if that helps?

Can you please post the full reference for the 1861 you mentioned? It will be RG9 - Piece: 2782 - Folio: ?? - Page: ??

[MaryA]

I have the 1861 census ref RG9/2782, if that helps?

Always give the census reference in full and even transcribe the census as it helps to refer to it without the necessity of opening the image.

Thanks for popping in Glenys, that information is very helpful.

[joannecbennett]

Hi,

The 1861 census shows RG9/2782 folio 92 page 33 GSU roll 543028. It looks like he was living with his brother Edward, sister in law Margaret (Henneghan?) and family. He is 34. On 1871 census age 44 RG10/3894 he is living with his sons and daughters. He died 13 June 1886 Moss View Lowton RSD age 60 and the informant was his wife Catherine Garry present at death Moss View Lowton.

I did find the two possible marriages in 1847 in County Westmeath and County Meath (possibly Clonmellon). I also found Edward born/baptised in 1855 in county westmeath and my records show Michaels son Edward was born approx 1853, not sure if I'm clutching at straws and I'm not sure how I can confirm I have the right people?

[MaryA]

1861
Ormskirk Road, New Town, Pemberton, Lancashire
James Garry Head M 38 Ag Lab Ireland
Margaret Wife M 34 Ireland
Catherine Daur 11 Scholar Ireland
Ellen daur 7 " Lancashire, Pemberton
Mary daur 4 " " "
Michael Brother Unm 34 Ag Lab Ireland

Here you have two daughters born in Lancashire - the birth certificate of one of them will give you Margaret's maiden name.

Ellen Garry Q2 1853 Wigan 8c 72
Using this information you can order the certificate online at www.gro.gov.uk HOWEVER LancsBMD for Pemberton have very nicely transcribed the Mother's maiden name - in the case of both Ellen and Mary and also a son James born 1859 it is DUNN.

[MaryA]

Have I got confused there? Re-reading your enquiry above I thought we were searching for an Michael and Catherine, however the 1861 reference you gave is for the family I have transcribed above.

Where did you get the names Edward and Margaret Henegan from?

[MaryA]

Your 1871 census appears to be for a different Michael than the one you gave the details for 1861 who was unmarried at that time.

Ormskirk Road, Pemberton, Lancashire
All born Ireland
Michel Garry Head Widow 44 Farm Labourer
James son Unm 20 Coal Minor Assistant
Edward " " 18 "
Michel " " 16 "
John " " 16 "
Mary daur " 14
Catherine daur " 12
RG10; Piece: 3894; Folio: 107; Page: 12

He died 13 June 1886 Moss View Lowton RSD age 60 and the informant was his wife Catherine Garry present at death Moss View Lowton.

If this is your Michael in 1871 he was already a widower then.

[joannecbennett]

I think I'm getting confused now.

1881 census RG11/3779 shows-
Michael Garry -head widower age 56 born approx 1825
James -son age 29 bn approx 1852
John - son age 25 bn approx 1856
Mary- daughter age 23 bn aprox 1858
Catherine - daughter age 21 bn approx 1860

1871 census RG10 3894 107 12 shows -
Michael head - age 44 bn approx 1827
James son age 20 bn approx 1851
Edward son age 18 bn approx 1853
Michael son age 16 bn approx 1855
John son age 16 bn approx 1855
Mary daughter age 14 bn approx 1857
Catherine daughter age 12 bn approx 1859

1861 RG9 2782 92 33

I thought I had Michael age 34 living with his brother James and their family. I think I presumed Michael's wife and children might still be in Ireland until he could bring them all over? Maybe I have got the wrong records?

I found a death for Michael Garry on lancsbmd in 1886 age 60 in Lowton which showed him married to Catherine. This would have given him a birth year of 1826 which fits. There is another Michael who died in Pemberton in 1889 age 55 which gives him a birth year of 1834 so I discounted him as too young. Maybe I need to order a birth certificate for Edward born 1853 to check who his parents are? I'm not sure how to go about it as he was born in Ireland.

I do have Edwards marriage certificate. He married Ellen Farrington on 29 Nov 1875 age 20 at the Wesleyan Chapel Pennington, Leigh. He lived o London Road Westleigh and his father was Michael Garry collier labourer.

[MaryA]

I found a death for Michael Garry on lancsbmd in 1886 age 60 in Lowton which showed him married to Catherine. This would have given him a birth year of 1826 which fits.

The thing that strikes me is that in both 1871 and 1881 census Michael is listed as a widower. So unless you find a marriage between 1881 and 1886 to a Catherine, then I wonder if you have the incorrect death.

Are you positive it says "wife", could it by any chance be the daughter Catherine?

[joannecbennett]

yes. I was thinking I may have the wrong death. The certificate notes 'the mark of Catherine Garry widow of the deceased present at the death' as the informant. The other deaths for 'Michael Garry' are all in a similar area - Culcheth and Pemberton but don't sem to fit date wise. I don't know how to confirm the marriage as it was in Ireland. I have two between Michael Garry and a Catherine both in 1847 one in Co Meath and one in Co Westmeath, but if I have wrong death cert then I might be barking down the wrong tree looking for a wife called Catherine.

[MaryA]

Yes, sorry, it seems things need another rethink.

Civil Registration for Ireland only covers the following years.

Births from 1864
Marriages from 1845
Deaths from 1864

If I have those dates wrong I think Dickiesam will correct me. I believe that to find information about the births of the children it will need to be parish registers.

Have you followed any of them through to the 1911 census as this one often gives a little more detail than the earlier ones?