Robert Whalley - Where are you!!

[Paul_Evans22]

From research into my late mother's middle name (Whalley) I've discovered that a Joseph Whalley married my great grandmother in Liverpool in 1893. He was a carter. Their marriage record says his father's name was Robert Whally, employed as a 'farm servant'. I just can't find Robert ! Thought I had a strong lead when I found a 1881 census record for a Joseph Whalley lodging in Liverpool, employed as a carter, who was born in Rainford about 1856 but there are lots of Whalleys in Rainford and I cant find Robert at all (assuming he even lived there), nor can I trace any record of Joseph in 1861 or 1871 census with a father called Robert, so I've hit a brick wall - assuming I'm not barking up the wrong tree (literally)!

[dickiesam]

Hello Paul,
What was your g.g.mother's name before she married Joseph Whalley? And when and where did they marry. The nearest marriage to Liverpool in 1893 was registered at Prescot.
Marriages Sep qtr 1893 - Prescot - 8b - 1066.
Whalley, Joseph married either Webster, Elizabeth or Winstanley, Sarah.

What ages were given for Joseph and his spouse on the marriage cert? Was Joseph a bachelor or widower? And have you found the couple in the 1901 census? If yes, please post the census page reference. It will be a series like this: RG13 - Piece: 3504 - Folio: 117 - Page: 53.

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Please give all the details from the marriage cert, as requested by Dickiesam, including witnesses as they often are valuable clues.

Can you please also quote the census record that you have them on, including the reference, so that we know we are looking at the correct family.

[Paul_Evans22]

Thanks for the replies. Joseph Whalley was a bachelor aged 28 when he married Mary Ann Clark (my great grandmother) on 23 July 1883 at St George's Church in Everton ( Source Liverpool Record Office; Reference Number: 283 GEV/3/12). This marriage was witnessed by William Bispham who I've already worked out was Mary Ann's father's brother-in-law, and Jane Rourke (Mary Ann's aunt - i.e. her mother's married sister). The 1881 census record is the only one I can find that lists a Joseph Whalley in Liverpool with the same birth year and occupation ( source citation Class: RG11; Piece: 3658; Folio: 120; Page: 28; GSU roll: 1341876). This record indicates that Joseph was born in Rainford in about 1856, and lodging at 98 Anthony Street Everton.
I have found a death record in Liverpool for 1886 which relates to a Joseph Whalley who was born about 1855. By 1891, the widowed Mary Ann was lodging with their daughter Edith in the home of her uncle (William Rourke) whose wife Jane had witnessed Mary Ann's first wedding to Joseph Whalley. She remarried the following year.
When Joseph's daughter Edith married in 1912 , her marriage document cites her father's occupation as a joiner although at the time of his marriage in 1883, Joseph was recorded as a carter. I just seem to have stalled in tracing any records for Joseph - or his father Robert Whalley - before 1881.

[Barbara B]

Found a Joseph Whalley married to Elizabeth in the 1901 census, with three small children. I'm not sure if it's the right man - he's listed as a coal miner.
Can't find a Joseph with father Robert.
Census reference RG13. Piece 3528. Folio 14. Page 19.
He was still around in the last census - more children and still a miner.
Hope this helps
Barbara

[dickiesam]

If the Joseph you found in 1881 is the right one and was born in Rainford, the birth registration would almost certain to have been in Prescot. There are only two such between 1853 and 1859.

Births Dec qtr 1854: Whalley, Joseph - Prescot - 8b - 445.
Births Sep qtr 1858: Whalley, Joseph - Prescot - 8b - 474.

Since the 1886 death indicates a YoB of 1855, the marriage cert 1855 and the 1881 census a YoB of 1856, you should consider sending for the 1854 birth cert and specify the father's name must be Robert Whalley. While the GRO http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certi ... efault.asp removed their Reference Checking facility in 2009, there is a 'workaround' to specify parents' names.

When you go to the GRO site and get to the 'Certificate choice' page, after ticking the Birth or Marriage Cert box there's a question at the bottom asking whether the GRO reference is known. Tick the 'No' box and just enter the year of the birth you are interested in, even if you do know the Index Reference [Qtr, Volume and Page numbers, etc]. Don't enter anything else here.

The 'Delivery address details' page comes next, and after that a new page will open allowing you to enter the names of the parents. The GRO will do a search 1 year either side of the given year. If they don't find the cert with the exact details you specified they will only charge a search fee of about £4.50 and refund the balance.

[Gray]

Hi Paul,
Have been looking at this marriage this afternoon but in your 1st post you said that the marr was 1893 but I had a feeling about it.


The marriage is listed on the OPC site: Whally spelling is how it's been transcribed.

Marriage: 23 Jul 1883 St George, Everton, Lancashire, England
Joseph Whally - 28 Carter Bachelor of 29 Abraham St
Mary Ann Clark - 23 Spinster of 16 Abraham St
Groom's Father: Robert Whally, House Servant
Bride's Father: Duncan Clark, Brick Maker
Witness: William Bishpham; Jane Bourke
Married by Banns by: W. H. Woodward
Register: Marriages 1882 - 1886, Page 75, Entry 150
Source: LDS Film 2147879

Edith's baptism is also listed:

Baptisms: 6 Jan 1886 St George, Everton, Lancashire, England
Edith Whalley - Child of Joseph Whalley & Mary Ann
Born: 27 Oct 1885
Abode: 36 Elmore St.
Occupation: Carter
Baptised by: Thos. Parker
Register: Baptisms 1882 - 1893, Page 81, Entry 641
Source: LDS Film 2147913

Hope this helps.


Gray

[dickiesam]

Perhaps a slight hiccup to my earlier post. There's a Joseph Whaley in the 1861 who could be the 1855 birth registration.
WHALEY, Joseph - Son - 6 - 1855 - Scholar - Prescot, Lancashire.
Father is Thomas, farm labourer.
RG09 - Piece: 2746 - Folio: 66 - Page: 23.
Address: Eccleston Road, Prescot.

There is the possibility his birth wasn't actually registered. Up to the 1870s it was the Registrar's duty to find and record births and he was paid by 'the each'.

[Paul_Evans22]

Dickiesam - I did mark the 1854 birth record as a tentative source for Joseph when first researching him as I could find no other in that period which seemed to fit the bill. I also followed up the Joseph Whaley route that led me to Thomas in the 1861 census but as the marriage record records a Robert Whally as Joseph's father, I didn't go any further with it. Doesn't help with all the spellings of Whaley, Whalley and Whally that appear in transcriptions of records across the years for the same family! Joseph's widow Mary Ann signed herself as Whalley when she remarried. Her daughter Edith also spelt her surname as Whalley before her marriage and this is how my mother spelt her own middle name, although the transcription of her birth record suggests it was Whally!

Gray - your post confirms how difficult it is to read/ transcribe many of these handwritten sources. Duncan Clark was actually a boiler maker although the writing on the marriage record does read like brick maker , the witness was actually Jane Rourke not Bourke, but I think the occupation of Robert Whally reads as Farm Servant although I started off reading it as House Servant till I found census returns for other people where Farm Servant was recorded as their occupation.
This part of my family tree took me ages to unravel and make sense of, but deep dives into census returns and research into witnesses to marriages has revealed complex and convoluted family relationships (including step-relations as some of my 19th C forebears died early and the surviving spouses remarried and had more children). The one big gap in my tree relates to Robert Whally (Whalley?), who he married, and finding something that links them to Joseph.

[Gray]

Hi Paul,

I have been playing around with this for a while.
Possibly I'm completely off beam here but just in case..never let a possibility go

I cannot find a baptism for Joseph,

However: there is a baptism OPC

Baptisms: 2 May 1852 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Archibald Whalley - Child of Robert Whalley & Elizabeth
Abode: Heath St
Occupation: Servant *NOTE*
Baptised by: W. R. Duncan Curate
Register: Baptisms 1851 - 1852, Page 208, Entry 1658
Source: LDS Film 93886

Occupation looks good, time frame is good.

There is a marr:
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1851
WHALLEY Robert MACALLAN Elizabeth Liverpool, St. Michael in the City Liverpool

Free BMD has other spellings of Elizabeth's name.
Macallum Elizabeth Janet Liverpool march 1851 20 244
Macullum Elizabeth Janet Liverpool march 1851 20 244
Whalley Robert Liverpool march 1851 20 244

I could not find a marr/death in the time frame for Archibald.. Then I found:

1871 Canadian census:

Name: Archibald Whally
Gender: Male
Age: 18
Calculated Birth Year: 1853
Country or Province of Birth: England

Ethnic Origin: English
Religion: C Of England
Census Place: 01, Yarmouth a, East Elgin 06, Ontario
Page Number: 62
Line Number: 12
House Number: 240
Family Number: 240
Film Number: 4396286
Library and Archives Canada Film Number: C-9898
Digital Folder Number: 4396286
Image Number: 00518
Household Gender Age Birthplace
Robert Whally M 49 England *** Note father ROBERT** sadly no mother listed?
Archibald Whally M 18 England
William J Whally M 16 England
Sarah Whally F 10 Ont
Nina Whally F 1 Ont


This Archibald is still in Canada 1891.

Will have another go tomorrow.. eyes a bit

Best of luck!
Gray

[Paul_Evans22]

Thanks Gray! Robert continues to be elusive. I've found what I think is the 1851 census record at a Liverpool address for the Robert Whalley and his wife Elizabeth you refer to following their marriage earlier in the year. He is recorded as a groom, born in Kirkham Lancs. By 1861 a Robert Whalley from Kirkham and his wife Elizabeth are in Preston with a string of children all born in different places across south Lancs - but alas no Joseph from Rainford amongst those listed - nor an Archibald, so maybe I've traced the wrong couple! It's been a long day, it's getting late and I've one eye on the Olympics now!
On my wife's tree I made real progress this afternoon, visiting an out of town cemetery and tracking down a family grave plot which still had its headstone (unlike many others that were unmarked), revealing a number of birth and death dates we didn't know.
What was intended to be a little hobby after I retired last year when I bought myself a subscription to Ancestry seems to have turned me into an amateur detective !

[moya]

Try the name without the H. Robert Walley birth registered Dec quarter 1851 Prescot. Moya

[moya]

On Family search there is a birth of Robert Whalley in 1824, parents Richard and Mary. Also birth of Robert Whalley in 1842, parents Robert and Mary. All from Rainford. Moya

[Gray]

Found Archibald's death:
Parents: Robert Whally
Elizabeth McCallum

Name: Archibald Whalley
Event: Death
Event Date: 09 Jan 1931
Event Place: Elgin, St. Thomas, Yarmouth, Ontario
Gender: Male
Age: 78
Estimated Birth Year: 1853
Father: Robert Whalley
Mother: Elizabeth Mccallum
Spouse:
Reference Number: 41
Film Number: 2295642
Digital Folder Number: 4002293
Image Number: 1108

Gray

[Gray]

I am scratching my head now,
One of the things bothering me about this family I am looking at, is Joseph is not on the 1871 Canadian census with the family. He would have been 16.

The family must have gone to Canada before 1860/1 as they have a daughter Sarah aged 10 born Ontario.

Joseph could have stayed behind with relatives? not sure about that one.

They do have a son William J born c1855 England, same year as Joseph was born. Could this possibly be William Joseph using his middle name..if so, came back to England??
Cannot find a birth ref for this but he may not have been registered.

Found a possible death for Robert Whalley, same area as Archibald>

Robert Whalley
10/12/1904
Yarmouth, Elgin, Ontario
Male 84
est. birth year 1820
ref yr1904 CN 9147

Sorry I couldn't be of more help..

Gray

[Paul_Evans22]

Thanks Gray for taking the time to look into this.

[Gray]

Paul,

Don't lose heart on this.. there are more seasoned researchers on here than me!
They are 'The Best'

if Joseph can be found.. they will find him

Gray

[simone]

Hi all

Been visting the Whalley's for a while, and as it's getting late and work tomorrow, want to get this down, not quite sure where I'm taking them yet either

Had a look at marriages in Liverpool at about same time as Joseph's with Robert as dad..
Liverpool St John
Elizabeth Whalley age 22, 28 Byrom Street,
married George Parks 23, 24 Whitechapel
11 Aug 1881 Liverpool St John
Father's Name: Robert Whalley - Farmer
Spouse Father's Name: John Parks - Publican

by 1891 Elizabeth is a widow living in the house of father Robert Whalley at Bickerstaffe, less than a stones throw from Rainford, and from experience with hubby's family they seem to be pretty interchangable
RG12; Piece: 3028; Folio: 25; Page: 14

Robert Whalley 64 - farm labourer, b Lathom
Ann Whalley 33 b Lathom - age looks to be 53
Elizabeth Whalley 29 - mistranscription, name is Park, widow.. b Lathom
Jessie May Whalley 19 daugheter b Bickerstaffe
Edith Martha Whalley 16 daughter b Bickerstaffe
Beatrice Lily Whalley 11 daughter b Bickerstaffe
Florence Park 2 grand daughter b Bickerstaffe

In 1881 Robert is with wife Ann and children at Altys Lane, Bickerstaffe.
RG11; Piece: 3742; Folio: 31; Page: 19
he is an Ag Lab

1871 at Bickerstaffe with wife Ann and children
RG10; Piece: 3869; Folio: 27; Page: 12
Robert Whalley 43 Ag Lab
Anne Whalley 34
Mary Whalley 9
Alice Whalley 6
Annie Whalley 4
Robert Whalley 4 Months


1861 Robert is with his own father, also called Robert... but states he is married.. but wife is not there

RG 9; Piece: 2766; Folio: 70; Page: 14
Robert Whalley 66 Farmer
Robert Whalley 35 farmer's son, married
John Whalley 32 son
Mary Whalley 42 son
Elizabeth Whalley 26 daughter
Harriet Whalley 12 grandaughter
Adam Fenton 14 servant
(nb there is a William Whalley age 40 on same page who is a carter and may or may not be connected!)

Robert Whalley married Ann Forshaw in 1858 at ormskirk, his father Robert, farmer, her father James a farmer.
So where is Ann in 1861... is she somewhere with baby Joseph.. or was Jospeh born to Ann before she married?
Perhaps need to look into the Forshaws a bit...

and who does Harriet belong to?

Questions, questions,questions

Got to go for now

Simone x

[simone]

Found Anne with her parents... no sign of a Joseph though
1861 Lathom
RG 9; Piece: 2766; Folio: 72; Page: 18
James Forshaw 57 farmer of 34 acres b Lathom
Elizabeth Forshaw 53
Robert Forshaw 30
John Forshaw 27
Elizabeth Forshaw 19
Mary Forshaw 17
Margaret Forshaw 15
James Forshaw 12
William Forshaw 9
Anne Whalley 23daughter, house servant
Elizabeth Whalley 1 granddaughter
Nancy Pickavance 59 wife's sister

Oh well... back to drawing..but off to work for now

Simone x

[simone]

If the Joseph you found in 1881 is the right one and was born in Rainford, the birth registration would almost certain to have been in Prescot. There are only two such between 1853 and 1859.

Births Dec qtr 1854: Whalley, Joseph - Prescot - 8b - 445.
Births Sep qtr 1858: Whalley, Joseph - Prescot - 8b - 474.

I reckon these are the above children maybe?


Joseph Whalley
Birth Date: 1 Nov 1854
Baptism Date: 26 Nov 1854
Parish: Prescot
Father: Thomas Whalley
Mother: Sarah W
Reference Number Pr 2504



Joseph Whalley
Birth Date: 5 Aug 1858
Baptism Date: 22 Aug 1858
Parish: Prescot
Father: Thomas Whalley
Mother: Sarah Whalley
Reference Number:Pr 2504


1861 census for each

1854 one?
RG 9; Piece: 2746; Folio: 66; Page: 23
Thomas Whaley 35 farmer
Sarah Whaley 33
Mary Whaley 15
James Whaley 10
Joseph Whaley 6
Thomas Whaley 3
Ellen Whaley 4 Months

In 1871 this family still together at Mossborough, Rainford
RG10; Piece: 3868; Folio: 16; Page: 26

1881 Sarah possibly a widow age 65, living at School Brow, Rainford..a retired Farmer, with grandaughter Sarah E Wainwright age 2. (John Wainwright married Mary Ellen Whalley in 1878) Interesting Sarah now here as this is where the other Sarah was living in 1861


1858 one in 1861
correction sent to Ancestry for name
RG 9; Piece: 2755; Folio: 30; Page: 25
School Brow Rainford
all born Rainford
Sarah Wheeley38 grocer
Thos Wheeley 12
Sarah Wheeley 10
Ann Wheeley 6
Joseph Wheeley 2
George Bush 32 ag lab lodger
Isaac Smith 14
Thos Smith 6

This Sarah is on previous census with husband Thomas and family. She dies in 1869 age 47. The children are then scattered, living with relatives or working /lodging elsewhere.
Joseph appears to stay in the St Helens area, living as nephew to Joseph and Sarah Whalley in 1871 and a farm servant in 1881 along with a Robert Whalley age 17 in the house hold of John and Ellen Whalley at Moss Nook, Rainford.. George Bush who was with the family in 1861 is still with Joseph now.
By 1891 Joseph appears to be boarding with the Dixon family in Parr, St Helens.. He is a Carter but still single..

so I think I have worked that out right and means they can't be your Joseph Whalley b Rainford who is in Liverpool in 1881

However I am curious about this birth entry..
Sep q 1856
Whilley, Joseph
Prescot
8b 434

I can't find this young man anywhere, fits nicely for birth reg, image is handwritten and although in with 'Whi' it does look like it could be Whalley?

perhaps someone else could have a peep

There is a another possibility
Mar q 1856
Male Whalley
8b 505
Prescot

Simone x