Calvanistic Methodist Death Certificate

[cjf]

Having searched B.M.D. records and obtained certificates (not turned out to be person i was searching for), Searched through Ancestry .com, Southport G.R.O have done search. I cannot find my ancestor's death certificate. I am only going on information that has been written in the Family Bible about his death and buriel ground, as he died in 1890 and the cemetery say they only have buriel records from 1904, I think this is because it was a cemetery for Calvanistic Methodists before the Flintshire Council took it over. My question is:- Has anyone a clue as to whether the registration of the death may be held within Calvanistic records, (he a was Calvanistic Methodist) or should it be held in some Registry Office somewhere, He was a journeyman bricklayer so could have died anywhere in the world, but England and Wales have been ruled out by S'port G.R.O. He was born in Wales was married and had a family living in Liverpool. Hope someone can give me some hope of finding this certificate. C. Fitz

[dickiesam]

Hi and welcome,
Simply put, any death within the British Isles from 1837 had to be registered at a Registry Office. Scotland have their own GRO, as do England and Wales [at Southport]. Deaths in Ireland would have been recorded in Dublin and Belfast from 1864. The deceased's religion would be of no significance to the Registrar and is not even noted on the registration.

Please avail of the many willing eyes on this forum and post your ancestor's name and date/place of birth and the date of his death as recorded in the family bible. It would also be useful if you could say where you have found him in any England/Wales census. I gather you know where he is buried. If in Flintshire, it is unlikely he died very far from these shores. If your ancestor died abroad or at sea there is a strong possibility his death would be recorded in the GRO Consular or Marine Death Indices.

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

There is also the thought that he may have travelled to Scotland, and although difficult could be within reason to be able to bring his body home for burial. It might be good to check Scotlandspeople to make sure there is no entry there for him.

[cjf]

Thank you for your replies I do appreciate them.
Here is the information about my ancestor:-
David Lewis
D.O.B 21 Dec 1852 Flintshire, Wales
D.O.D As copied from Family Bible, 25 March 1890, place unknown.
Buried (As copied from Fam., Bible) Pen Rhewl Cemetery, Mostyn, Flintshire, Wales.
He was a journeyman bricklayer and lived with his family in Liverpool.
This address show's him living in Liverpool:-
1881 census 80 Molyneux Road, Liverpool.

His widow moved back to Wales on 1891 census, but then is showing living back in Liverpool 1901 and 1911.

Thank you. Carol

[dickiesam]

Hi Carol,
Despite the bible being the family bible it is possible an error in the year was made if the DoD was written some time later. Do you have the birth cert for the youngest child Robert who is said to be 1 year old in 1891?
There are 2 births that might be him. I looked at West Derby registrations because the family were living there in 1881.
Births Jun qtr 1889: Lewis, Robert - W. Derby - 8b - 560.
Births Sep qtr 1890: Lewis, Robert - W. Derby - 8b - 396.

Because of the age on the census page I believe the 1889 birth is probably him. If we had the date of birth it would give an indication as to when he was probably conceived and give us a start date for a death. It is possible there is a baptism for Robert in the Ancestry Liverpool collection.

Assuming David didn't have a second forename [Taliesin?] there are only 4 deaths that fit his DoB +/- 2 years between 1888 and the 5th of April 1891 when the census was taken.
LEWIS, David - Montgomeryshire, Llanfyllin - 1889.
LEWIS, David - Carmarthenshire, Llanelly - 1889.
LEWIS, David - London, Shoreditch, 1889.
LEWIS, David - Caernarvonshire, Conway - 1891 [March qtr].

Bearing in mind that the family were in Liverpool when Robert was born, it is possible they had moved back to Flint before he died and the Conway death could be the one. It's just 'up the road'.

[Hilary]

Robert Lewis's christening is on Ancestry

St George C of E Everton
Robert Lewis son of David and Mary Ellen Lewis of 32 Tudor St christened 24 July 1889. Father a bricklayer


Does the family grave in Flintshire have a gravestone? If it does do you have the transcription as that could prove helpful?

[cjf]

Hi thank you all again for advice and suggestions.
I will try Scotland registry office.
I have searched all those Welsh indexes mentioned and more besides, I have bought the Conwy certificate and it's not him.
Yes, the 1889 would be Robert's Christening.
Twice i have been to Pen Rhewl cemetery and i cannot find a headstone, Flintshire County Council say they don't have any buriel records before 1904, I have searched Calvanistic buriel records at Hawarden Record office but the dates are too early.
Southport GRO would have turned David up in London when they done the search for me two weeks ago if he had been there.
Talk about brickwalls I am well and truly up against one big one.
Thanks again everyone.

[Hilary]

When the GRO did the search did you specify a date of death or just gave a year and his occupation?

My only other thoughthis could he have gone abroad saying he would return but didn't and the date of death given is the date he dispapeared - or is that just too fantastic?

[Blue70]

Try Scotland's People website. If you register and do a free search there is one result that could be your man. I don't have any credits at the moment so can't be sure it's him:-

http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/


Blue

[cjf]

hA,HA, YES I HAVE THOUGHT OF THAT TOO, BUT WHY SAY HE IS BURIED IN THAT CEMETERY AS WELL. I GAVE THE REGISTRAR THE WHOLE DATE AND YEAR, OCCUPATION, WIFE'S NAME, LAST KNOWN ADDRESS.
THANKS. CAROL

[cjf]

Try Scotland's People website. If you register and do a free search there is one result that could be your man. I don't have any credits at the moment so can't be sure it's him:-

http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/


Blue

THANKS BLUE WILL DO. CAROL

[MaryA]

I wonder if they were just too pernickety about the information you gave them, if he was working away the last two points wouldn't be applicable.

Try ordering again this time online, but make the choice of "GRO Reference isn't known" enter the minimum of information but include the full date and I notice you need to insert Place of Death - try seeing if it will accept "British Isles" or United Kingdom and that way maybe they will check more carefully for just the date.

[cjf]

Ah, thank you Mary, I will try again and as you say this time on- line doing what you suggest. Here goes.
thanks . Carol

[Blue70]

Playing around with the Scotland's People index the David Lewis who died there was born about 1850 and died in 1891 in the St. George district of Edinburgh City.


Blue

[Hilary]

I agree with MaryA that it would be worth trying again with less information given. Sometimes less can produce more.

[cjf]

Thanks for that Blue, I did register with the site you sent me the link for but there were 40 odd to search and i would have had to buy credits, I have spent more than enough money already searching for his death cert. Thanks.

I have done what Mary A suggested, applied again with less info this time, and it did accept British Isles. Thank you all, you have all been great. Carol

[MaryA]

Sign up to this site (cancel later if you want), it's free and gives you 10 free credits for Scotlands People.
http://www.ancestralscotland.com/newsletter/

[Blue70]

You should only have one result. If you use the free credit offer try this:-

Go into "Deaths" in "Statutory Registers"
Enter name and keep the options as they are
Change year range to 1889-1891
Enter birth year as 1852 +- 2 years
Leave everything as it is
Click search
There should be one result


Blue

[dickiesam]

I had a spare credit so had a look. I don't think the Scotland's People hit is the Welsh David because there's a second forename recorded as Murray. Full name David Murray Lewis, age 41, died 1891.

I am wondering if David did die according to the bible note? It is not unknown for a deserted wife to say she is a widow, and the bible note may have been to add substance to the story in view of the strict views of the Calvanist Methodists.

[MaryA]

I had a spare credit so had a look.

Thanks DS

I think if the GRO don't turn up a death on the exact date without any additional criteria, then you may well be correct in your theory.

At least the money is usually safe as if none turn up they won't charge.