Clare (Richard, James and Maria) 1840-1900

[Pauline]

Correction: that should be 1834.

Pauline

[MaryA]

Unfortunately as Civil Registration began in 1837 you aren't going to find any birth, marriage or death certificates prior to then. Parish Registers will be the place to look, but they don't give as much information, we will have to try to look around to find other clues.

[Pauline]

Supposing Eliza died in either 1852 or 1856 and left the three children orphans. How would I go about seeing if they were in an orphanage or if there was a court case to decide what were to happen to them? I looked on Ancestry and Find My Past.com and did not see a catagory that would encompass this.

[Hilary]

What information did you have that led you to the birth certificate you have obtained? The reason I ask is that your ancestor sounds as if he had a a good job, surveyor/civil engineer. I find this hard to equate to a family on parish relief in 1851.

[Pauline]

The birth certificate was obtained by an older cousin who was in Liverpool a few years ago and researched the family there. The basis she used was the date of birth on his death certificates, census information here in the U.S. and the brothers and sisters names which concur with the information Richard had told his children and grandchildren in stories. As for his job, remember that people were able to reinvent themselves outside the confines of the class or circumstances of their birth by going abroad, if they had it in them to begin with. Which he obviously did. I am open to be shown that this information is incorrect but it is what falls into line so far.

[simone]

Hello All,

Maria is found in Brownlow Hill workhouse in 1865 having a daughter Eliza Maria.
Thank you,

Do you have this burial?

Dec 7th 1865
Elisa Maria Clair
Birth Year: abt 1865
Age: 2/12 This age is wrong, the image actually says 17 days, these figures relate to something in the margin, a couple of other burials have the same written in the margin
Burial Date: 7 Dec 1865
Parish: Walton Park


Do you know what happened to her mum, Maria? There is a possible that fits on later census' living in Liverpool with Edmund Taylor b 1823 Cheshire and his wife Charlotteb c 1825 Ireland. She is slisted on each census as their niece.

[Pauline]

Hi Simone,

No, I did not have this burial for Eliza Maria. I will see if I can pull that up. One of the stories my Ggrandfather told was that when his parents died his mother's sister took in Maria but did not want the boys. I did see the census you refer to but that was after Maria was in the poor house and left abandoned. I considered that this could be her at age 25 but will have to see if anything else comes out to confirm. I do wonder if there are any orphan records as I stated earlier today that might show the children after Eliza's death?

Thank you,
Pauline

[Hilary]

Liverpool Workhouse (Brownlow Hill) records are held at Liverpool Record Office. They are not available on line.

[Pauline]

I just pulled up the index, I don't see the age or notation you speak of on that. I do have Eliza Maria's birth certificate though and she was born on October 11, 1865 and if she died Dec. 7, 1865 she would have been 2 mo. and 4 days old. Are you looking at a different record to see the age and notation?
Thanks.

I could order the death certificate I beleive. as I do have the GRO reference #'s.

If the workhouse records are not available online how would I request a look-up?

[Pauline]

I just sent a query to Liverpool Records office to see how I can proceed, Thanks for the information...much appreciated!

[MaryA]

They may be willing to do a 15 minute search and see what they find for you. If you need more time you may need to pay a researcher.

Let's hope they find the entry in the time.

[simone]

Hi Pauline

Maria is with the Taylor's in 1861 also when she is 15.. she may have only gone into workhouse 1865 to have the baby? My own great grandmother was in the workhouse to give birth and then left after.

1861 43 Barnes Street, Everton
RG 9; Piece: 2715; Folio: 15; Page: 24
Edmund Taylor 38 b Lostock Graham Cheshire, Retired Draper
Charlotte Taylor 34 b Ireland
Maria Chase 15

1871 50 Brookfield Road South
RG10; Piece: 3823; Folio: 72; Page: 6
Edmund Taylor 48
Charlotte Taylor 44
Maria Clare 25 niece

[simone]

I just pulled up the index, I don't see the age or notation you speak of on that. I do have Eliza Maria's birth certificate though and she was born on October 11, 1865 and if she died Dec. 7, 1865 she would have been 2 mo. and 4 days old. Are you looking at a different record to see the age and notation?
Thanks.

sorry Pauline I was looking at the age for the child above yes she was 2 months old

[Pauline]

she may have only gone into workhouse 1865 to have the baby?

That did occur to me, I don't know enough about the time in British socialogy to know that but I did read a online story about Brownlow hill workhouse and I saw that in 1865 they brought in trained nurses through an experiment funded by philantropist, Mr. William Rathbone. Truthfully I skimmed through it, I need to sit and read it. I guess the workhouse served as the orphange too then?

[simone]

Hi Pauline.. I think it was quite common for unmarried mums to enter the workhouse to give birth.

Here is a good link that will tell you loads more

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/

also if you key Liverpool into the search on that site you will get links to Liverpool institutions

[Pauline]

Thanks Simone, that is the site my cousin found and I did skim through but I need to sit down and read it. I received a response from Liverpool records office and mine will be a paid research situation so I need to figure that out. I wish I could just come over there and do it myself Ahhh, well. I think it's better to figure out how to buy a money order for british pounds and get some answers.

[Pauline]

What information did you have that led you to the birth certificate you have obtained? The reason I ask is that your ancestor sounds as if he had a a good job, surveyor/civil engineer. I find this hard to equate to a family on parish relief in 1851.

In the vein of full disclosure, my cousin just reminded me that Richard did indeed work as a Surveyor and when in Pittsburgh worked as a Civil engineer but he supplimented his income by working as a night watchman as well. There is a plan of a town in Bedford county that his name is signed to as surveyor, dated 1885. The 1880 census
lists his occupation as night watchman. He was known to have many jobs at one time.

Pauline