James Keane or Cain

[Janita]

Hello, I am looking for info on James Keane (Cain). Back in April 2010, we searched for Catherine McCourt who married James Keane (Cain) aged 33 yrs in 1879 in Liverpool. James was born County Clare to Patrick and Ellen (Crotty) Keane. His date of birth would have been about 1846. I wonder is there any way we can go further back to Ireland with this one? Thanks for any suggestions.

Janita

[dickiesam]

Hi,
If you are confident that James was born in County Clare, as far as records go it is unfortunate that parish BMD records for Clare are not yet up on the Irish Family History Foundation site at http://www.rootsireland.ie/

Currently the only way to search the Clare records is by using the Clare Heritage Centre who will charge for their services. Clare Heritage & Genealogy Research Centre Corofin, County Clare. http://www.clareroots.com/

An initial search, which is quite thorough, will cost 195 Euro [abt £155]. A full report can cost up to 425 Euro [abt £340], and more (!), depending on time and complexity of the search. The costs hark back to the heydays when American tourists poured into Shannon Airport, which is in Co Clare, intent on finding their g.g.g.kinfolk, money no object!
There are full contact details on their site.

The alternate is to keep 'scratching' at other sites such as FamilySearch and take a look at the Griffiths Valuation abstracts site. This is the link for Keane hits: http://www.failteromhat.com/post1845.php

From the site:
Ireland's Valuation office conducted its first survey of property ownership in Ireland from 1848 to 1864. This survey became known as "Griffiths Valuation" after Richard Griffith who was the director of the office at that time. The survey was used to determine the amount of tax each person should pay towards the support of the poor within their poor law union. This involved determining the value of all privately held lands and buildings in rural as well as urban areas to figure the rate at which each unit of property could be rented year after year. The resulting survey was arranged by barony and civil parish with an index to the townlands appearing in each volume.
Only abstracts are online. For the full details you would have to visit the National Archives in Dublin.

[Janita]

Hi,
Thanks very much, I had heard that it is very expensive to trace Irish ancestors through the means you suggested, and can't really afford it!
Would there be any way of tracing how or when James moved to Liverpool? Also on his marriage certificate which I don't have would it show where he was living at the time?
I have looked at familysearch again using all the variations of Keane, Cain, Kane and wish they had made up their mind which way to spell it! It has always been Keane here at the Australian end thankfully. I will keep looking as you suggest.

Many thanks Janita

[dickiesam]

Hi Janita,
Unfortunately there is now way of knowing when James arrived in Liverpool because back then Ireland was part of the UK and there were no 'borders' to cross, so no records. His marriage cert would give his address when he married, but it may be an 'accommodation address' where he was staying while the banns were read, assuming he married in church. The cert will also show his father's occupation and might indicate if he was still alive or deceased.

BTW, the only Liverpool marriage in 1879 for a James Cain is this one:
CAIN, James,
Registration district: Liverpool, Lancashire
Year/qtr of registration: 1879 / Jan-Feb-Mar
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 326
James married either SAKALAUSKI, Marie or McCourt, Mary.

[Tex T]

Could I suggest the following alternative link for searching Griffiths Valuation.

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith- ... nameSearch

On this site you can look at the original published pages of the valuation (after doing a family name search or place name search). In addition, using the reference number from the valuation, you can view the Ordnance Survey map of the time to see the precise location of the land/property identified. However, this latter option is not perfect, as I have discovered by experience. As the website itself explains "It should be noted that the connection between the maps and the Valuation is never perfect; there are regular omissions and mistakes. The best connection is in the working copies of the maps used in the Valuation Office itself."

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Surnames are often mis-spelt due to illiteracy, either a priest or enumerator may take a best guess from the names given, especially as often happens with a broad Irish accent it is changed to a similar sounding name, so it's probably not your ancestors who should be blamed for the differences.

The names you have are too coincidental to the marriage that Dickiesam found for it not to be connected, however I believe that you need to check the maiden name of female McCourt from the birth certificate of one of the children. The LancsBMD site confirmed that the person who married James Cain was Mary McCourt and it took place "Liverpool, Register Office or Registrar Attended" which possibly means that it was in either an RC or Non Conformist church where the registrar was required to attend. I found this marriage in St Mary's, Liverpool
14 February 1879 by Joannes Lynch
Jacobum Kain 16 Denison Street, parents Joannis and Helena Kain
Mariam McCoiurt 34 Denison Street, parents Owen and Catharinae McCourt
Witnesses Richardo Phelan and Catharina McCourt

[dickiesam]

Baptisms from http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk

ST MARY HIGHFIELD ST - bn 1883 - bpt 1883 - JAMES CAIN - father JAMES - mother MARY McCOURT
ST JAMES - 1885 - 1885 - ELLEN CAINE - father JAMES - mother MARY McCOURT.
ST JAMES - 1888 - 1888 - JAMES CAIN - father JAMES - mother MARY McCOURT

It was not unusual for a child to be given the same forename as a child who had died earlier.

[MaryA]

Perhaps you recognise the children from these baptisms, also at St Mary's

Born 3 February, baptised 4 February, 1880
Joannes Cain parents Jacobi and Mariae Cain (nee McCourt)
Godmother Elizabeth McCourt

Born 18 June, baptised 18 June, 1883
Jacobus Cain parents Jacobi and Maria Cain (nee McCourt)
Godmother Maria Anna O'Hare


Coincidentally on the same page but may also have absolutely no connection
Born 12 January baptised 1 February 1880 was a Joannes Carolus Hughes, parents Joannis Hughes and Elizabeth (nee McIntyre) - godfather Joannes McCourt.

[MaryA]

James was born County Clare to Patrick and Ellen (Crotty) Keane.

I notice that the marriage we have discovered to Mary McCour gives James parents as Joannis and Helena Kain.

Can you tell us the evidence you have for James parents to be Patrick and Ellen? and if I have the wrong marriage then you will need to obtain the certificate for yours from either the Liverpool Register Office or the GRO as I haven't been able to find it online.

I think if you gave us details from some of the censuses that you have them on in Liverpool it might help us get a more overall picture of the family.

[Blue70]

I remember this family from the previous thread Catherine McCourt & Mary Ann O'Hare were godparents to two of my Holland people of Denison Street.

Blue