Questions regarding Elizabeth & Samuel Perkins

[sper531695]

I would be really grateful for any help with the following:

Samuel Perkins (son of Joseph Perkins & Emma Smith) born Olney, Bucks in 1864 married Elizabeth Anne Byrne (or Burns), born County Wicklow, in June 1888 at St. Andrew's Bebington. They had 5 children: Lily May (1889) and William Joseph (1892) were born in New Ferry, Samuel Thomas (1896) and John Walter in Belfast (1900) and Isaac (1906) in the US.

I can find passenger lists for Elizabeth (or Lizzie Anne) and the children returning to Liverpool from the US in 1906 but not for Samuel. I assumed he had died especially as in the 1911 census she is shown as married to Henry Gaskill, having been married for 1 year, and as a shop-keeper in 128 Athol Street, Vauxhall Road. I have now, however, found in the 1911 census a Samuel Perkins married to Catherine, again for 1 year, in 21 Parry St. Seacombe who fits in terms of date of birth and place of birth being Olney, Northants. I have obtained a death certificate for Samuel, showing him dying in September 1851 at Victoria Central Hospital, Wallasey with the notification being made by his nephew W.T. Avery of Rappart Road, Wallasey. I cannot find marriage records in 1909-1911 for either Elizabeth Ann Perkins or Samuel Perkins so am stuck!

Does anyone recognise Samuel or Lizzie Anne? If so do you know anything about either or both marrying for a second time? Does anyone know where I can check divorce records

Thank you for your help.

Sandra

[dickiesam]

Hi Sandra and welcome.

I have obtained a death certificate for Samuel, showing him dying in September 1851 at Victoria Central Hospital, Wallasey

Is 1851 a typo for 1951?

If you can't find Samuel Perkins, husband [former] of Elizabeth returning to the UK it is possible they divorced in the US. You can have a search for a UK divorce by downloading an application form from here: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/reco ... lp=rg-3175
Divorce was a very expensive process back then, usually only for the wealthy with deep pockets, because the application had to be done in the High Court in London.

Would be worth checking the marriage cert for Elizabeth and Henry Gaskill to see what she declared as her status. That is, if someone can find the marriage before 1911! I haven't found it yet. No disrespect but it looks as though she wasn't divorced when the census was taken.

Then I found this..
A Henry H C Gaskill married Elizabeth Byrne
Registration district: Liverpool.
Year/qtr of registration: 1915 / Jul-Aug-Sep
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 259.
EDITED to change Henry R C Gaskill to Henry H C Gaskill.

If this is the right couple maybe there was a divorce. Could take more than a few years to go through the system as it was then a lengthy process. If this is Elizabeth it is unusual that she married under her maiden name though. You will have to compare her father's name and occupation on the marriage certs.

[dickiesam]

Hi,
Found Elizabeth and 4 children leaving for the USA in 1905:

Name: Eliz PERKINS
Date of departure: 4 March 1905
Port of departure: Liverpool
Passenger destination: New York, USA
Age: Adult
Marital status: Married
Occupation: Matr

The following children also travelled with Elizabeth on this voyage: -
Jno PERKINS; Lillie PERKINS; Sam PERKINS; and Willie PERKINS.
Passengers recorded on: Page 6 of manifest.
Ship: UMBRIA.

[MaryA]

Slight confusion as LancsBMD gives Henry H Gaskill marrying Elizabeth Byrne in 1915. Nevertheless, assuming it is them the marriage took place at Liverpool, Register Office or Registrar Attended.

My gut feeling is that if it is your Elizabeth, because of marrying under her maiden name, and maybe also in the Register Office, I would suspect that there had been no divorce between her and Samuel. Also you can search the indexes in the Divorces on the National Archives site http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/reco ... ivorce.htm where it is stated that The survival rate of divorce case files is: 1858-1927: almost 100% and yet I didn't find them listed.

[dickiesam]

RE:

Slight confusion as LancsBMD gives Henry H Gaskill marrying Elizabeth Byrne in 1915.

The R does look like an H on the GRO Index Page but very close examination shows it to almost certainly an H. Could be confusing for a transcriber. On a different copy of the GRO Index Page displayed by FreeBMD it is definitely an H!. I have amended my post.

[sper531695]

Thank you so much, DickieSam for your help with this. Yes, that's definitely them going to the USA. I've had a quick look at the National Archives and no record re divorce but I will check again and definitely order that marriage cert.

I had made the mistake of just checking between 1906 and 1911 - it looks as if they might not have told quite the truth on the 1911 Census but I'm sure that was often the case for respectability/appearances.

Thank you for pointing out the mistake re Samuel's death - it should be 1951.

Again many thanks

Sandra

[sper531695]

Thank you Mary.

Elizabeth/Lizzie was Catholic but had married Samuel in Bebington Parish Church under the rites of the Established Church. I wonder if that made a difference to her thinking about the marriage? Not sure I want to think about what that means for the children but ....

Thank you again,

Sandra

[MaryA]

When a marriage is found on the LancsBMD site giving the place the ceremony occurred as Register Office or Registrar Attended it has a couple of meanings, one is that it was indeed a Register Office marriage, the other that it was an RC or Non Conformist marriage when, even nowadays, a Registrar has to attend as the priest is not a Registrar as in a C of E church. So you could well be correct that they married in an RC church, but as I didn't find an entry for it online, you may only discover this by ordering the certificate.

As far as the legality of it and the children involved, there was a lot of this around as DS helped me find out with one of mine. It would be interesting to see whether she claimed to be a spinster or a widow on the certificate.

[dickiesam]

I had made the mistake of just checking between 1906 and 1911 - it looks as if they might not have told quite the truth on the 1911 Census but I'm sure that was often the case for respectability/appearances.

Most definitely the case! Come across many such and one in particular in my maternal line. In the 1911 my g.mother said she had been married 13 years when in fact she was referring to my g.father's 1898 marriage to his wife who had left the 'family home' between 1906 and 1908, taking a daughter with her but deserting her two sons and another daughter. My gran eventually married my mother's father in 1925, following the death of his wife in 1924, after living 'over the brush' for nearly 20 years.

Tangled webs and all that!

[sper531695]

Thank you both again for your comments.

Mary, I will let you know what is said once I receive the certificate.

Dickiesam, so far everything has been 'above board' in my trees so it's exciting to have a whiff of scandal!

I'm so glad I joined the society - you've been so helpful.

Sandra

[MaryA]

Hope you'll remain a regular on the forum, not just the Society, you'll enjoy reading about all the problems that crop up and I'm sure be able to help out with suggestions for solutions too.

[sper531695]

Yes, absolutely.

I will definitely enjoy it and look forward, one day, to being able to help others.

I may need some help again soon. I've discovered a new line today with the name of Silvey in Liverpool or Walton which I'm having some problems finding out information about. I need to try and do a little more research for myself before appealing to the forum though, I think.

One final question, and please let me know if the answer to this is elsewhere. I will have a couple of certificates which were ordered speculatively and don't belong in my tree. How can I donate/notify them to people who might find them useful?

Many thanks

Sandra

[MaryA]

I'm sure you will be able to get involved quite quickly.

When you know what help you need just start a new post with the details of what you have and we'll see what we can do.

Lovely offer of the certificates, just send them to Peter Jones, the Journal Editor http://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/officers.html who will include them in the next one and then forward them to Lee Layland who will also enter them in the online database.

[sper531695]

Thank you again for helping me find information about Elizabeth/Lizzie Byrne/Perkins/Gaskill.

The marriage cert. arrived today showing, as you rightly said, that Elizabeth & Henry Gaskill were married at Liverpool Register Office on 17 August 1915. Elizabeth is absolutely the correct person - her father's name and occupation tally with the first marriage certificate details.

Her condition is said to be a spinster. Even though four of her children would have been adults, none is a witness to the wedding and I would assume that if she was giving her condition as a spinster they would not have been able to attend?

I have looked for records of a divorce in the National Archives and was unable to find a record. My assumption now is that following her and Samuel's fifth child's birth in the US she returned to the UK with her children and did not see him again. Interestingly, but pure speculation, her final child was called Isaac which is the name of Henry Gaskill (her second husband's) father.

I wonder if anyone could help me with a couple of questions regarding Catholic practices at this time. Elizabeth/Lizzie was Catholic - would it have been possible for her to get a divorce sanctioned by the Church at this time? Would the fact that her first marriage had been in a C of E Church had an impact on that? She is buried in Ford Cemetary so I assume her religion was important to her. My grandfather, her son, was a regular church-goer and is also buried in Ford, even though his wife and children were not Catholics so he must have learnt that from his mother.

Thank you again for helping with this search.

Sandra

[dickiesam]

Hi Sandra,
Re:

I wonder if anyone could help me with a couple of questions regarding Catholic practices at this time. Elizabeth/Lizzie was Catholic - would it have been possible for her to get a divorce sanctioned by the Church at this time? Would the fact that her first marriage had been in a C of E Church had an impact on that?

If Elizabeth was strictly 'of the faith' I would say divorce would be out of the question. Catholics could not divorce, EOS. If there were extreme circumstances such as a bigamist spouse, the marriage could be dissolved, so it didn't exist in the eyes of the church even though it would still be in the GRO Index as an 'event'.

As will probably be confirmed here, , there were cases of Catholic bigamous marriages that actually lasted. It was too expensive to divorce anyway and if you were RC and found you had made a big mistake bigamy was your only option if you wanted to marry the new spouse! And you would fib and call yourself a spinster to avoid any problem questions!

[MaryA]

Now this may sound strange but if Lizzie was feeling stroppy and wanted to marry in an RC church then technically she could have thought, even if only to herself, that she wasn't actually married the first time in the eyes of her church since the ceremony took place in the C of E religion, however, since you say the marriage took place in the Register Office then I suspect she was refused in an RC church, if she even approached the priest.

No, divorce is not and would not have been sanctioned in the Catholic Religion, possibly an dissolution but after a few children it would be difficult to consider that she could possibly put forward a reason for this, so not possible.

Yes, we have quite a number of bigamous marriages amongst posters on our forum, probably for this very reason.

[sper531695]

Thank you Mary and DS.

I thought this would be the case. I wonder how she explained it all away to people - but as you say it wasn't a unique case so I guess people either turned a blind eye or believed whatever story she told. It obviously didn't stop her being buried in a Catholic cemetary, with presumably a religious service before.

My father was 16 when she died but never met her, so he doesn't have any solutions for this story. Very sad!

Thank you both again

Sandra