Murrays, Widnes/St. Helens

[angelak]

Hello,

I'm a new member to the society and this is my first post on the forum, so hello to everybody! I've got lots of questions which I'm hoping I can get some help with. I've been doing family history for a while but I'm running up against what seem to be brick walls. I'm keen but not that experienced.

My question concerns my great-granddad, William Murray, possibly born in Ireland or St. Helens in 1847/1850. He appears on most censuses, except for the 1871. In the 1861 census, he's listed as living in Parr, St. Helens with his parents Bernard and Susan Murray and his siblings (Class: RG9; Piece: 2752; Folio: 17; Page: 26; GSU roll: 543023). In 1881, he's on Davies Street, Widnes, with his wife Sarah (nee Thompson, born Great Harwood 1847), her daughter Lily (1874, Bury) and their son John (1879, Church). (Class: RG11; Piece: 3726; Folio: 104; Page: 27; GSU roll: 1341892). In 1891, he's in Bradford, Manchester with the same family (Class: RG12; Piece: 3256; Folio 103; Page 44; GSU roll: 6098366) and then he disappears. I can't find a death certificate for him, but in the 1901, Sarah is shown as a widow living with her son John in Manchester (Class: RG12; Piece: 3256; Folio 103; Page 44; GSU roll: 6098366).

I can't find either William or Sarah on the 1871 census. I know they marry after Lily's birth but before John's. In his early life, Williams is a labourer in a glass works, and later, he is a labourer in a chemical works. Can anybody shed any light on this and perhaps tell me whether electoral rolls for Widnes or St. Helens are online somewhere?

Thanks very much for any help! Looking forward to hearing from you!

Angela

[Katie]

Electoral Rolls for St. Helens are at local history department in St. Helens.

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Just looking at the moment, but I believe this is the reference for the 1901 census RG13; Piece: 3762; Folio: 8; Page: 7.

[MaryA]

Since Sarah isn't with John, Mary and family ten years later, has she died ? I checked the deaths for that period and found one I would think is her
Sarah Murray Q1 1909 Prestwich 8d 348 age 59.

Have you discovered where she is buried? I'm not going to be very useful making suggestions for cemeteries in the Manchester area, but could I suggest that for that particular question you enquire on a friendly forum we know http://manchesterfamilyhist.proboards.com/index.cgi If her burial is discovered it might be a private grave and perhaps William is already there.

[dickiesam]

Hi Angela and welcome,
I think this might be William in 1871..

MURRAY, William - Boarder/lodger - 22 - 1849 - Labourer - Ireland.
RG10 - Piece:3760 - Folio: 13 - Page:20
Address: 67 Portland Street, Liverpool, Lancashire.

Have you discounted this death?
MURRAY, William
Registration district: Liverpool, Lancashire
Year of registration: 1892; Quarter of registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at death: 44
Volume no: 8B
Page no: 41

I assume this is his marriage?
MURRAY, William
Registration district: Bury, Lancashire
Year/qtr of registration: 1876 / Apr-May-Jun
Volume no: 8C; Page no: 679.
William Murray married either THOMPSON, Sarah or TURNER, Sarah Ann.

[dickiesam]

Hi Angela,
I have been trying to find what happened to William's siblings who were born in Ireland. A census might give a clue as to where they were born. You probably know that St Helens BMDs were registered under Prescot district before 1974.

Fairly sure I have found James Murray bn abt 1843. In 1861 he is single and a chemical labourer with his parents. I think this is he in 1871:
MURRAY, James - Head - 28 - 1843 - Chemical labourer - Fermanagh, Ireland
MURRAY, Mary - Wife - 29 - 1842 - Clare, Ireland.
MURRAY, Catharine - Dtr - 3 - 1868 - Wigan, Lancashire.
Address: 25 Mersey View, Widnes, Lancashire.
Registration District: Prescot
RG10 - Piece:3858 - Folio: 33 - Page:58

Births Sep 1867: Murray, Catherine - Wigan - 8c - 75.

Possible marriages:
1) MURRAY, James
Registration district: Prescot, Lancashire
Year/qtr of registration: 1862 / Apr-May-Jun
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 833
James probably married MULLEN, Mary.

2) MURRAY, James
Registration district: Prescot, Lancashire
Year/qtr of registration: 1865 / Oct-Nov-Dec
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 1135
James married either MCMAHON, Mary or O'DONALD, Mary Ann.

If we can find Catherine's baptism you will be able to confirm the mother's name [Mullen, McMahon or O'Donald] without buying the birth cert. If this is the right family, then Fermanagh, in what is now Northern Ireland, is the place to start looking for William's birth and that of his sister Mary.

[MaryA]

Lucky on two counts - not often you get a place in Ireland, good shot DS with that Fermanagh, a vital clue!!

Again lucky in that LancsBMD for Wigan gives the mother's maiden name for the births. There are only two births for a Catherine given in 1867 and one of them appears to be the one we are after
MURRAY Catherine Hindley Wigan & Leigh MCMAHON

[angelak]

Dear All,

Wow! You are all so impressive and so quick, thanks so much. I am really touched that you have given my questions so much detailed thought and work. I'm disabled and live miles away from Lancs/Manchester where I spent most of my life and as travel can be difficult and expensive for me, I try to do as much online as poss. This is why I was hoping some of the electoral rolls might be available.

Thanks Kate for the tip about the St. Helens rolls; would I be right in thinking that the Widnes rolls are also in a library there? If so, do you know which one?

Mary, apologies for the incorrect link, it was the one Ancestry gave, thanks for the correction. Also thanks for the tip about Mary, I think that is she but I've had no luck finding a burial for her or William even though the Manchester cemeteries are online. Philips Park is the closest to where they lived, (just up the road}. I will try that message board tho', thanks.

Dickiesam, thanks for all the info, I had seen that ref to James and wondered if he was William's elder brother, will do a bit of digging. Bernard, their Father states he is from Fermanagh on one of the censuses, I think the one where he is living with Mary (Murray) Casey, his eldest daughter and her husband Lau(W)rence Casey. But on one census she states she and Laurence were born in Dublin.

William is a puzzle as he seems to have been born simultaneously in Ireland and Warrington according to his hazy census returns. In my own mind I think the 3 eldest, Mary, James and William were born in Ireland, probably Fermanagh and/or Dublin. William is the only one who seems to move about much, everyone else stays in ST. Helens and on the 1901 census in Widnes. There is a family mystery about William, which I will bore you with another time, if you like:-) I don't have any info that he may have died in Liverpool; I just presumed he died/left the family home in Manchester.

Thanks once again, I'm thrilled, honestly, tho' that's maybe a bit sad; Family History has me firmly in its grip! If you can think of anything else I'll be really glad to hear it.

Angela

[dickiesam]

Lucky on two counts - not often you get a place in Ireland, good shot DS with that Fermanagh, a vital clue!!

Again lucky in that LancsBMD for Wigan gives the mother's maiden name for the births. There are only two births for a Catherine given in 1867 and one of them appears to be the one we are after
MURRAY Catherine Hindley Wigan & Leigh MCMAHON

Good shot yourself there MaryA, finding the wife Mary's maiden name as McMahon.. from County Clare.
And Fermanagh here we come?

[Tex T]

Widnes Library has electoral rolls for the Widnes area, but only for the mid 1930's onwards.

[angelak]

Dear Tex,

Thanks for that info, it has saved me a wild goose chase. Sorry for the tardy reply. May I ask do the Widnes or Warrington group put any info, local history etc about those areas on here or on another site do you know? I don't really know much about that neck of the woods and, I didn't really hold out much hope of finding my rels there so I'm really pleased to have found out so much and would like to know more about their "context".

Thanks,

Angela

[MaryA]

Click the globe above which will take you to the main Society page, then under Groups you will see that there are some photographs of old Warrington and a couple of links for cemeteries in the area.

There are also some old and new photographs on the Widnes Group page.

[angelak]

Thanks, MaryA, will look at that area.

Angela