Terence Jones & Sarah - looking for marriage

[BrianPet]

Can anyone help me, Terence Jones who died in brownlow hill workhouse in feb 1921. is listed as being married to sarah but I cant trace the marriage. or any sign of them on any census living together
there only daughter Eleanor or (Ellen) was born in 1895 so I am searching around this time. there address is listed as 114 St James street on the workhouse records.

[Barbara B]

If you are sure of Ellen's date of birth you could send for her birth certificate, giving her father's name. This would then give you her mother's maiden name, making it easier to find a marriage (well that's the theory!)
Hope this is of some help
Barbara

[BrianPet]

Thanks Barbara, makes sense, I didn't think of that

[dickiesam]

Hi,
Terence would have died in the Infirmary attached to the workhouse, not in the workhouse itself. The address, 144a Brownlow Hill, was the same for both.

Have you got the birth cert for the daughter Ellen? If yes please post Sarah's maiden name. If not you need to get it or find a baptism. The maiden name is essential for a marriage search.

I did find this baptism that might be Ellen on http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk/index.htm
ST FRANCIS XAVIER - bn 1895 - bpt 1895 - ELLEN JONES - father TERENCE - mother SARA nee CRUSE.
Note that Cruse is often spelt Cruise.

In 1891 there are 3 Sara(h) Cru(i)se possibles, aged 14, 15 and 23. by 1901 they are all either married or have died.

For the benefit of the crew here this is Terence's death:
Deaths Mar 1921: Jones, Terence - 52 - Liverpool - 8b - 114.

EDITED TO ASK: On Terence's death cert does it say he was a widower and who was the informant?

[MaryA]

Burial at Ford Cemetery 28th February 1921, place of death 144a Brownlow Hill, age 52 - Grave R998

So this would confirm the religion as being RC.

Fuller details from the baptism
Helena Jones born 26 June, 1895, baptised 7 July, 1895 at St Francis Xaviers
Parents Terentii and Sarah Jones (nee Cruse)
Godfather Jacobus Cain - Godmother Helena Jones

Nice priest has noted the marriage for Helena
8 March, 1913 to Jacobo Fagan in St Francis

[dickiesam]

Births Sep 1869: Jones, Terence - Liverpool - 8b - 204

With his birth cert information we would have a better chance of finding him pre-1895 when Ellen/Helena was born.

And have to agree about that priest being so considerate as to add her marriage details to her baptism record. Rarely come across that before. Marriages Mar 1913: Fagan, James P and Jones, Eleanor - Liverpool - 8b - 145.

[dickiesam]

Interesting!
There's only one Terence Jones, bn anywhere in 1869 +/- 3 years, in the 1901 census...
JONES, Terence - Prisoner - Single - 30 - 1871 - Scene shifter and stage carpenter - Liverpool.
Address: H M Prison, Hornby, Walton On The Hill, Liverpool.
RG13 - Piece:3457 - Folio:51 - Page:27

I haven't found a Jones/Cruse marriage so perhaps Terence and Sara didn't marry. And if this is Sara..
Death: JONES, Sarah
Registration district: West Derby; Year/qtr of registration: 1901 / Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at death: 32
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 217.
It would explain why he is considered to be single.

So where would Ellen/Helena be in 1901? Could this be her?
HANKIN, William - Head - Md - 44 - 1857 - Coal carter - Liverpool.
HANKIN, Mary A - Wife - 39 - 1862 - Laundress - Liverpool.
JONES, Ellen - Niece - 6 - 1895 - Liverpool.
Address: 4 Oliver Street, West Derby
RG13 - Piece:3497 - Folio: 7 - Page:5

[Alison C]

Hello,

A search for Terence Jones in the Liverpool Mercury shows he had been in and out of prison since his teens - for pickpocketing.

7 October 1882 - "Terence Jones, aged 13, was charged with stealing a purse containing £1 10s from the person of Harriet Martin in the Old Haymarket yesterday"

1 March 1890 - "Terence Jones (20), labourer, five months for stealing £3 2s 6d from the person of Rose Togue on the 23rd February".

30 March 1891 - "Terence Jones, a young man, was charged with frequenting Beau Street with intent to commit a felony. Detectives Woods and Whiteley, it appears, were on duty in Beau Street on Thursday evening when they noticed the prisoner put his hands into the pockets of several women outside the Haymarket Music Hall."

7 February 1893
OLD OFFENDERS AND THE POLICE - George Campbell and Terence Jones were charged with frequenting with intent to commit a felony. Detective Constable Allison on Saturday night watched the prisoners moving about in the crowd in Camden Street. He saw them put their hands in the pockets of several ladies and try to secure their purses. Campbell asked the officer why he did not bring some of these persons as witnesses, and Jones pleaded that he was so drunk he could not have stolen anything. One of the prisoners endeavoured to discredit the officer's statement by observing that for the last 15 times he had been up it was always the same thing he was charged with. His comrade added that he could not go into the street but the police were on him ; he supposed they wanted him to sit in the house and put his feet in the fire. The prisoners were each sent to jail for three months.

[Alison C]

....and one for a Sarah Cruise too!

17 March 1894
Esther Smith and Sarah Cruise, young women, were charged with frequenting Lime Street and London Road with intent to commit a felony. Detective Duckworth, who had been watching them, saw the prisoners attempt to pick the pocket of a drunken man.......Prisoners were each sent to jail for one month with hard labour

[dickiesam]

Hi Alison,
Your finds are much more interesting than mine was! Terence seems to have been quite the lad. And if the Sarah Cruise is the same as the baptism Sara, she wasn't far off the mark either. I don't think they were ever married and fibbed when having Ellen/Helen(a) baptised.

In the last census the only Terence Jones in England bn abt 1869 in Lancashire is living at 88 Gerard Street, Liverpool, occupying just one room. He is down as a general labourer. There are in fact 7 'households' in #88, most in single rooms, including at least 3 families.

If this is the same couple I hope BrianPet isn't too disappointed or shocked.

[BrianPet]

WoW, thank you both for your hard work and your mind blowing results.
Despite being an only child, Ellen married James Fagan and went on to have 10 children.
One of them Sheila Fagan had a daughter (my wife) and placed her for adoption at 10 days old.
so we started this search with very little information and with your help have built a picture of her
ancesters. (certainly not what she anticipated)
my wife and Sheila are in touch now and she is re-laying our findings to Sheila, this is all fasinating news to Sheila who has no recollection of Ellen as she was only eight when her mum died.
Sheila is terminally ill so it is rewarding for my wife and her to share these findings as shocking as they are.
so I thank you both again for your priceless help.

[dickiesam]

WoW, thank you both for your hard work and your mind blowing results.
Despite being an only child, Ellen married James Fagan and went on to have 10 children.
One of them Sheila Fagan had a daughter (my wife) and placed her for adoption at 10 days old.
so we started this search with very little information and with your help have built a picture of her
ancesters. (certainly not what she anticipated)
my wife and Sheila are in touch now and she is re-laying our findings to Sheila, this is all fasinating news to Sheila who has no recollection of Ellen as she was only eight when her mum died.
Sheila is terminally ill so it is rewarding for my wife and her to share these findings as shocking as they are.
so I thank you both again for your priceless help.

Hi,
I am, as all the crew here will be, sorry to learn of Sheila's situation. But, very pleased we have been able to help put background to her family history. Would you want to go further back to Sara Cruise's and Terence Jones' births and beyond?

[BrianPet]

I don't think so DS, I think I have unearthed enough for now, although Sheila is very ill I wouldn't like to be responsible for her early demise. due to shock
Thanks again for your help.

[Tina]

A big pat on the back Genies for great research here.
All I've done is read replies with amazement.
Bonzer

Tina