Ellen Sarah Norbury Death???

[Daisycakes]

Having no luck finding the death of Ellen Sarah sometimes Sarah or just Ellen Norbury ( nee Riley) born 1879 Liverpool, have all the relevent info up to 1901. Her husband Thomas Alfred is a widower on the 1911 census.. with 2 children Gladys Maude age 10 and May age 5.

Maybe fresh eyes might seek her out.

Thanks in anticipation Ann

[dickiesam]

Hi Ann,
Bit of a mystery here. There is only one female Norbury death recorded by the GRO [all areas, counties, and all 'classes'] between 1905, when May Norbury was born in Prescot, and 1911.
Death: NORBURY, Mary Emily
Registration district: Chorlton, Lancashire
Year of registration: 1906
Quarter of registration: Jul-Aug-Sep.
Age at death: 28
Volume #: 8C; Page #: 547.

Don't think that is your Ellen because there's a Chorlton marriage of a Tom Norbury to a Mary Emma Giles in 1898.

Leaves only a couple of alternatives. Either she died in Scotland, Ireland or perhaps the IoM, or she wasn't dead but Thomas referred to himself as a widower to save face, etc.

But here's an odd thing. There are only 2 May Norbury births registered in Lancashire between 1901 and 1910:
Births Jun 1904: Norbury, May - Bucklow - 8a - 214.
Births Sep 1905: Norbury, May - Prescot - 8b - 808.

And the Prescot May is alive and well in St Helens 6 years after her birth with parents John and Ellen Norbury [bn abt 1879], at 90 Friar St, St Helens. Parents say they have been married 11 years and have 1 other child, Thomas bn 1901.

The May bn Bucklow is with her parents Frederick and Elizabeth in the Salford area.

So how come there are 2 Mays listed in the census as being bn in 1905 in 2 separate households, both with a mother Ellen Norbury?

DS

EDIT to add:
Deaths Sep 1905: NORBURY, May - 0 - W. Derby - 8b - 415.
The plot thickens... where did this May come from? Is that census not truly accurate and Thomas Alfred got it wrong?

[Daisycakes]

Thanks DS
My man is definately(( as sure as I can be)) Thomas Alfred Norbury and have the family on 1901 census in Liverpool and my grandmother Elizabeth is living with them...Ellen is her sister.

Thomas Norbury 22 married
Ellen Norbury 20 married
Thomas Haines 44 Stepfather Widower ( this is Ellen and Elizabeths stepfather)
Elizabeth Riley 16 sister
Gladys Maude Norbury daughter 2 months

I do have copy marriage and baptisms etc of the family

Heres the strange bit....Given that Thomas says hes a widower on the 1911 and he has a son Thomas b 1908 living 1911 census with an aunt ...I am beginning to think you are right in thinking maybe Ellen has left him and he is perhaps just saving face...bless

I have come across this before and it took me a long time to sus it all out...These ancesters of ours didnt make it easy for us searchers did they??
So the search goes on for Ellen

Ann

Just found on Anc baptisms Elizabeth May born 23 April 1905 to Thomas Alfred Norbury and Alice ((could this name be an error)

[dickiesam]

Hello Ann,
Re:

Just found on Anc baptisms Elizabeth May born 23 April 1905 to Thomas Alfred Norbury and Alice ((could this name be an error)

That child is probably the one whose death I found in Sep qtr 1905. Looked for an Alice Norbury as a possible mother to Elizabeth but they all seem to be accounted for. I think you really need the birth cert to sort that out.
Births Mar 1905: Norbury, Elizabeth - W. Derby - 8b - 647.

That young Thomas Norbury bn 1908... do you have his birth or baptism cert showing his mother's name? If it is Ellen it means her disappearing act happened within a very short span of years.

I am getting the feeling that Thomas Alfred was in a bind when the census form arrived. And why was his son Thomas away with rellies? That we'll never know but it might add fuel to the supposition that Ellen left him. On whose side is that child a nephew, Albert or Margaret Robinson [formerly Hibbert, nee ?]?

DS

[Daisycakes]

Baby Thomas 1908 I dont have a cert or baptism for him. I do believe he is Thomas Alfreds son and it seems Ellen must have left sometime between 1907 and 1911 I guess we will never know UNLESS I can find her somewhere in the 1911 census.

Margaret Robinson prev Margaret Hibbert maiden Peers

Ann Jane Blackburn prev Ann Jane Norbury Maiden Peers

Margaret and Ann Jane where sisters... I have searched for the other Norbury sons and only one had a son baptised Thomas but he was born 1903 and is with his parents on 1911 census.

This family was large with lots of children from previous marriages but all seem to be linked ...when I go through the marriages for most of the children same name witness's and sometimes addresses appear

Thanks DS for continued help... Ann.

[dickiesam]

Ann, here's a thought...

The 'widower' Thomas Norbury states in the last census that only 2 children were born to his marriage. The line was later crossed out by the enumerator because it should have been completed by Thomas' wife. The 2 children are presumably Gladys and May. So were does the 'son' Thomas bn 1908, and a nephew in the Robinson household, fit in?

And, why isn't the child Elizabeth May, bn and died in 1905, included as a 3rd child born, with 1 child having died? Methinks Thomas Alfred was more than a little confused by the census form?

And getting back to the nephew Thomas, where is the Robinson/Norbury link? Between 1870 and 1908 [all counties] there are 3 possible marriages of a male Norbury to a Robinson out of a total of 12 possible Robinson/Norbury marriages.

DS

[Alison C]

Hello all,

FreeBMD shows the marriage of John Norbury to Ellen Bradshaw in Q3 1900 in Prescot 8b 1321. So this looks like the couple living in Prescot in 1911.

Lancashire OPC has the following marriage for a Thomas Norbury to Alice Povey:
Marriage: 30 May 1898 St Clement, Toxteth, Lancashire, England
Thomas Norbury - 25 Labourer Bachelor of 42 Cullen St.
Alice Povey - 23 Spinster of 26 Windsor View
Groom's Father: Benjamin Norbury, Carter
Bride's Father: Joseph Povey, Brick-layer
Witness: George Woodburn; Susannah Williams
Married by banns by: Henry Johnson
Register: Marriages 1892 - 1901, Page 170, Entry 339
Source: LDS Film 2147911


Familysearch shows:
Gladys Maude baptised 1 Oct 1900 parents Thomas Henry(?) Norbury and Sarah Ellen.
Elizabeth May (b 1 May 1906, bap 1911 in Anfield), parents Thomas and Nellie - so this looks like the May Norbury on the 1911 census living with Thomas Alfred.

Ancestry also has:
Nillie (Nellie??) (Thomas Alfred and Ellen)

There's a birth registration for Ellen Norbury in Q2 1902 but no death???

So we now have two missing Ellen Norbury's !!

Alison

[Daisycakes]

Ann, here's a thought...

The 'widower' Thomas Norbury states in the last census that only 2 children were born to his marriage. The line was later crossed out by the enumerator because it should have been completed by Thomas' wife. The 2 children are presumably Gladys and May. So were does the 'son' Thomas bn 1908, and a nephew in the Robinson household, fit in?

And, why isn't the child Elizabeth May, bn and died in 1905, included as a 3rd child born, with 1 child having died? Methinks Thomas Alfred was more than a little confused by the census form?

And getting back to the nephew Thomas, where is the Robinson/Norbury link? Between 1870 and 1908 [all counties] there are 3 possible marriages of a male Norbury to a Robinson out of a total of 12 possible Robinson/Norbury marriages.

DS

Hi DS...The Robinson/Blackburn/Norbury and baby Thomas 1908 link was covered in my previous post ((Now I am Flummoxed )) and you kindly helped me with that..((.re Thomas Norbury being crossed off the transcript. and entered on the next one))

My main aim is to find Ellen Norbury's death as Thomas says hes a widower on 1911. And as you say maybe as we cant find a death she perhaps did a runner...or even divorced.Maybe I will never know??

Alison ...I have got the baptism of Nillie and no havent found a death for her.....Also Gladys Maude baptism but do know via distant family that her father was in fact Thomas Alfred Norbury.

Thanks both for your help ...Ann The search goes

[Hilary]

I think it would be worth seeing the actual entry for the Anfield baptism of Elizabeth May Norbuey she's born 1 May 1906 but not christened until 25 jan 1911, child of Thomas and Nellie. If the address and occupation ties in it might be helpful.

How do you know Thomas is Thomas' son? I think you need a baptism or birth certificate for him to see who he belongs to.

[MaryA]

perhaps did a runner...or even divorced.

I have found divorces listed on the National Archives before, but sadly nothing appears to be there for your couple
Results list

[Daisycakes]

Hi Hilary... I cannot find a baptism for baby Thomas 1908 ....but do have from fbmd his details..

Thomas Alfred Norbury June 1908 8b wd 559

Its a bit of wishful thinking that this baby is the child of Thomas Alfred Norbury senior... that plus the other clues with the Peers/Robinson/Hibbert/NORBURY/Blackburn rellies(( and another snippet on Thomas and Ellens marriage cert his stepbrother Oliver Hibbert was a witness)) Baby Thomas nephew was at the Hibbert house on the 1911 census.

Having said that I give in and will have to order a birth cert.

Hi Mary...didnt know divorce papers where held at Nat Arc so thank you for looking

Thanks again both Ann

[Hilary]

Maybe someone could look at the baptism for Elizabeth May that 4 year wait for baptism seems odd. It appears to be at st Margaret Anfield.

[Daisycakes]

Hi Hilary...that is a great idea...I will start another post so as not to confuse things....

Thanks again ...Ann

[Barbara B]

The baptism is listed under England and Wales baptisms so no way to view the actual certificate on Anc***. Perhaps Lancs OPC?
Barbara

[Daisycakes]

Hi Barbara...No records for St Margarets on OPC ... It seems they are held at the LRO ...have listed a new post for SKP to take a look for me.

Thanks.... Ann

[Daisycakes]

Thomas Alfred Norbury June 1908 8b wd 559

Its a bit of wishful thinking that this baby is the child of Thomas Alfred Norbury senior... that plus the other clues with the Peers/Robinson/Hibbert/NORBURY/Blackburn rellies(( and another snippet on Thomas and Ellens marriage cert his stepbrother Oliver Hibbert was a witness)) Baby Thomas nephew was at the Hibbert house on the 1911 census.

Having said that I give in and will have to order a birth cert.

Hi Mary...didnt know divorce papers where held at Nat Arc so thank you for looking

Thanks again both Ann

Have today received baby Thomas Alfred's birth cert and his parents were indeed Thomas and Ellen So either Ellen died between 1908( perhaps in childbirth) and 1911 when Thomas senior states hes a widower...or perhaps as DS suggested she may have left him which seems a bit sad really. On the 1911 he has 2 children with him Gladys age 10 and May 5 (this is Elizabeth May) and says there have only been 2 children....when in fact there where actually 4...inc baby Thomas 1908.... Nelly was born 1902 and in 1911 she is living with Thomas seniors brother William Henry Norbury as his niece.

I wonder if this was a troubled family or maybe Ellen just couldnt cope...I guess we will never know..

Ann