Dear all,
I should be grateful for any thoughts on how I might be able to prove (or disprove) the following:
One of my 3x great grandfathers (John Moncas) claims in a letter written in 1840 to have “farmed for several years between 2 and 300 acres of land in the neighbourhood of Liverpool”. This was a revelation to me because from at least 1813 (at the age of 24) he ran his own watch-making business from the heart of Liverpool. That business continued until at least 1839 (with the assistance of his sons) despite being declared bankrupt in 1832. I have never found any evidence of his claim to have owned and farmed, such an expanse of land and I am unsure about how I might be able to establish if this is fact or fiction – especially as I have no Idea of what years he might be referring to, or how extensive “the neighbourhood of Liverpool” might have been in the early to mid 19th C.
Do any forum members have ideas on sources that might help me clear up this conundrum?
Cheers. Mike.
Farming fact or fiction?
The schedules to tithe maps list owners and occupiers, but from memory I think they were compiled too late to prove the claim.
Another thought is that the large estates of Lord Derby, lord Sefton etc would be farmed by tenants, but it would be a major task to search the estate archives 'on spec'.
D
Another thought is that the large estates of Lord Derby, lord Sefton etc would be farmed by tenants, but it would be a major task to search the estate archives 'on spec'.
D
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Mike Paice
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Hi and welcome to the forum. I was thinking the same as Dagger's suggestion, I think it would be best if you enquired with the Liverpool Record Office whether there would be any tithe maps for around the date in question.
Could there have been land "in the family" as it were on which he worked while growing up, have you checked for a Will for his father or even for himself?
Where was he living in the 1841 census and could this point to the area he may have farmed? and was he married by this time?
Could there have been land "in the family" as it were on which he worked while growing up, have you checked for a Will for his father or even for himself?
Where was he living in the 1841 census and could this point to the area he may have farmed? and was he married by this time?
MaryA
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The "neighbourhood of Liverpool" could include a large area. His occupation is given as watchmaker at the baptism of his son Joseph Hadwen and it seems unlikely that he was the actual farmer but maybe as MaryA suggests it was land that someone else farmed. Perhaps he was born there.
Much of the farming land around Liverpool was held by lease. Some of these leases are shown on the webisite a2a (access 2 archives) however Moncas produced no hits.
Where did he come from and where was he in 1841? Did he have any siblings where are they? Did he he leave a will as that might mention land?
Was the surname always Moncas or has it got corrupted over the years? Is it derived from Monkhouse for instance?
I think before you can even begin a search for land you have to know more than "neighbourhood of Liverpool" Any search so vague could cover Liverpool Record Office, Lancashire Record Office or Cheshire Record Office for over on the Wirral.
Much of the farming land around Liverpool was held by lease. Some of these leases are shown on the webisite a2a (access 2 archives) however Moncas produced no hits.
Where did he come from and where was he in 1841? Did he have any siblings where are they? Did he he leave a will as that might mention land?
Was the surname always Moncas or has it got corrupted over the years? Is it derived from Monkhouse for instance?
I think before you can even begin a search for land you have to know more than "neighbourhood of Liverpool" Any search so vague could cover Liverpool Record Office, Lancashire Record Office or Cheshire Record Office for over on the Wirral.
Hilary
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It could well be land on the outskirts of the present Liverpool City boundary. Lots of land was owned by Liverpool merchants who had their mansions there away from the town. The villages outside Liverpool would often be described as "near Liverpool" although they were not actually part of the town or in sight of the town. The villages were often linked to Liverpool because their major landowners were often from a Liverpool merchant background or Liverpool politicians.
Blue
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Mike Paice
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Thank you Mary, Hilary and Blue.
John Moncas is a fascinating individual. I wont bore you with all the detail but I do have most of the wills; the family has been Moncas since at least the mid-1700s (but it was rumoured that they had changed the name from Monkhouse - but then it was also rumoured that John was once Lord Mayor of Liverpool
); John was orphaned as a child - his father was a grocer and his grandfather owned Pontacks Coffee house in Water Street; the family owned land and messuages over in Warmfield in the land of the white rose; in 1841 he was back in Liverpool as a watchmaker after a failed venture in North Wales - at this time he was broke, and rather unpopular with many of his fellow Liverpudlian business colleagues; by 1845 the entire family had moved to London and were selling books!
I suspect that his claims were judiscious fabrications in order to give himself credibility as a farmer during the North Wales venture but I might be being very mean to the memory of a man for whom I generally have a lot of respect
I'll let you know if I ever get anywhere with this line of research.
Cheers.
Mike.
John Moncas is a fascinating individual. I wont bore you with all the detail but I do have most of the wills; the family has been Moncas since at least the mid-1700s (but it was rumoured that they had changed the name from Monkhouse - but then it was also rumoured that John was once Lord Mayor of Liverpool
); John was orphaned as a child - his father was a grocer and his grandfather owned Pontacks Coffee house in Water Street; the family owned land and messuages over in Warmfield in the land of the white rose; in 1841 he was back in Liverpool as a watchmaker after a failed venture in North Wales - at this time he was broke, and rather unpopular with many of his fellow Liverpudlian business colleagues; by 1845 the entire family had moved to London and were selling books!I suspect that his claims were judiscious fabrications in order to give himself credibility as a farmer during the North Wales venture but I might be being very mean to the memory of a man for whom I generally have a lot of respect
I'll let you know if I ever get anywhere with this line of research.
Cheers.
Mike.
There are a number of entries in the newspapers for John, including the announcement of his marriage to Miss Catherine Harrison in Liverpool Mercury etc (Liverpool, England), Friday, February 7, 1812; Issue 32.
Also an advertisement for a watch maker, his address at that time was 60 Hanover Street, Liverpool Mercury etc (Liverpool, England), Friday, February 11, 1820; Issue 451.
It may be him who is on the Coronation Committee who resolved a number of issues. Liverpool Mercury etc (Liverpool, England), Friday, July 13, 1821; Issue 528.
Bankruptcy of the Liverpool chronometer manufacturer in The Morning Post (London, England), Wednesday, August 22, 1832; Issue 19252
If you haven't seen these your local library membership might give you access to the online old newspapers, but if not, then let us know and we can give you fuller details if you need them.
Also an advertisement for a watch maker, his address at that time was 60 Hanover Street, Liverpool Mercury etc (Liverpool, England), Friday, February 11, 1820; Issue 451.
It may be him who is on the Coronation Committee who resolved a number of issues. Liverpool Mercury etc (Liverpool, England), Friday, July 13, 1821; Issue 528.
Bankruptcy of the Liverpool chronometer manufacturer in The Morning Post (London, England), Wednesday, August 22, 1832; Issue 19252
If you haven't seen these your local library membership might give you access to the online old newspapers, but if not, then let us know and we can give you fuller details if you need them.
MaryA
Our Facebook Page
Names - Lunt, Hall, Kent, Ayre, Forshaw, Parle, Lawrenson, Longford, Ennis, Bayley, Russell, Longworth, Baile
Any census info in this post is Crown Copyright, from National Archives
Our Facebook Page
Names - Lunt, Hall, Kent, Ayre, Forshaw, Parle, Lawrenson, Longford, Ennis, Bayley, Russell, Longworth, Baile
Any census info in this post is Crown Copyright, from National Archives
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Mike Paice
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Many thanks Mary - I haven't seen some of those and so will need to do a bit of reading. Thank you.
Daggers - yes I'd worked out that the Lord Mayor of Liverpool thing was a family fiction. I suspect the story started with John's grandfather and here's why:
The Corporation of Liverpool noted in the ledger for 1775 that cash totalling £7-9s-10d was paid to Thomas Moncas on 18th October for his services in support of the ceremony of 'riding the liberties'. The ceremony was led by the Mayor, who took a party of Bailiffs, officers of the Corporation and personal friends on horseback to ride around the limits of the town. The purpose of 'riding the liberties' was to ensure that disputes did not break out over the boundaries of demarcation between the borough and adjoining townships (plotted with boundary stones marked with the initials of the Mayor in office at the time and with the year in which he served).
So I wonder if Thomas was a friend of the Mayor, as well as the provider of paid services for the ceremony. As the story was handed down, he seems to have been promoted in family folklore from the entourage to the Mayor himself!
I love family history.
Mike.
Daggers - yes I'd worked out that the Lord Mayor of Liverpool thing was a family fiction. I suspect the story started with John's grandfather and here's why:
The Corporation of Liverpool noted in the ledger for 1775 that cash totalling £7-9s-10d was paid to Thomas Moncas on 18th October for his services in support of the ceremony of 'riding the liberties'. The ceremony was led by the Mayor, who took a party of Bailiffs, officers of the Corporation and personal friends on horseback to ride around the limits of the town. The purpose of 'riding the liberties' was to ensure that disputes did not break out over the boundaries of demarcation between the borough and adjoining townships (plotted with boundary stones marked with the initials of the Mayor in office at the time and with the year in which he served).
So I wonder if Thomas was a friend of the Mayor, as well as the provider of paid services for the ceremony. As the story was handed down, he seems to have been promoted in family folklore from the entourage to the Mayor himself!
I love family history.
Mike.
Land tax records for the West Derby Hundred for the time 1780 - 1832 exist for many of the townships around the historical centre of Liverpool. These are held at Lancashire Record Office and probably around 15 - 20 of them would be near enough to Liverpool to be called the neighbourhood. They do record who has to pay the tax and who owns the land. It'd be a long job to look at them all!
Hilary
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Mike Paice
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With thanks to MaryA for the pointer to the Liverpool Mercury, it looks as if I have found the area where John Moncas had land 
I have a huge amount already on his bankruptcy but a notice in the Mercury told me something I didn't know: "... concerning two sales of certain land, Hereditaments, and Premises, belonging to the said Bankrupt, situate in West Derby, near Liverpool.....". Well, that has narrowed the search down a little but also fires off more questions in my mind, especially about the "hereditaments". Anyway, I'm assuming from Education Officer's last comments that some time may be needed at Lancashire Record Office to look at records for West Derby.
Any further advice will be gratefully received but in the meantime thank you all so much for your help so far.
Mike.
I have a huge amount already on his bankruptcy but a notice in the Mercury told me something I didn't know: "... concerning two sales of certain land, Hereditaments, and Premises, belonging to the said Bankrupt, situate in West Derby, near Liverpool.....". Well, that has narrowed the search down a little but also fires off more questions in my mind, especially about the "hereditaments". Anyway, I'm assuming from Education Officer's last comments that some time may be needed at Lancashire Record Office to look at records for West Derby.Any further advice will be gratefully received but in the meantime thank you all so much for your help so far.
Mike.
Heraditaments just refers to property that can be inherited
I would assume that if the property/land is referred to as in West derby it refers in this instance to the township of West Derby.
DEpending on when the land was being sold you have 2 things that may help
Land tax records exist for 1781 - 1831 they will give the owner and the the tenant
Tithe map and schedule sometime between 1836 and late 1840s
Looking for wills to show how he acquired the land could be trick as he may have inherited the land from either paternal or maternal lines
I can see you will be in the Lancashire Record Office for some time!
When was the land sold?
I would assume that if the property/land is referred to as in West derby it refers in this instance to the township of West Derby.
DEpending on when the land was being sold you have 2 things that may help
Land tax records exist for 1781 - 1831 they will give the owner and the the tenant
Tithe map and schedule sometime between 1836 and late 1840s
Looking for wills to show how he acquired the land could be trick as he may have inherited the land from either paternal or maternal lines
I can see you will be in the Lancashire Record Office for some time!
When was the land sold?
Hilary
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Mike Paice
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Hi Hilary - yes wont I. Maybe Lancashire Records Office will allow me to bring a sleeping bag
The land was sold in 1832, in order to help clear the debts from his bankruptcy. So land tax records may well be the way to go.
The hereditaments interest me simply because my cousins and I doubt that his parents had anything much for him to inherit. I have some of the relevant family wills and the only land and properties mentioned in those were in Yorkshire. Sadly, John's parents have not revealed much in my research to date - his father was a grocer who died when John was only about 5 years old, and although his mother remarried I have a sneaking suspicion that she may have left John an orphan whilst he was still very young. He may also have inherited from outside the family but that at the moment is pure supposition.
I need to try and get to grips with John's parents and see if there are any wills for them. I also need to find out with whom John was apprenticed to learn his watchmaking skills (as one of his sons was Joseph Hadwen Moncas, and the Hadwens were involved in watch making, it maybe that there is the connection waiting to be confirmed).
Mike.
The land was sold in 1832, in order to help clear the debts from his bankruptcy. So land tax records may well be the way to go.
The hereditaments interest me simply because my cousins and I doubt that his parents had anything much for him to inherit. I have some of the relevant family wills and the only land and properties mentioned in those were in Yorkshire. Sadly, John's parents have not revealed much in my research to date - his father was a grocer who died when John was only about 5 years old, and although his mother remarried I have a sneaking suspicion that she may have left John an orphan whilst he was still very young. He may also have inherited from outside the family but that at the moment is pure supposition.
I need to try and get to grips with John's parents and see if there are any wills for them. I also need to find out with whom John was apprenticed to learn his watchmaking skills (as one of his sons was Joseph Hadwen Moncas, and the Hadwens were involved in watch making, it maybe that there is the connection waiting to be confirmed).
Mike.
Is this your John?
Baptism: 25 Feb 1788 St Nicholas, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
John Moncas - Son of Thomas Moncas & Hannah
Born: 5 Feb 1788
Abode: Rainford's Garden
Occupation: Upholsterer
Register: Baptisms 1788, Page 180, Entry 160
and a brother Thomas
Baptism: 17 Apr 1791 St Nicholas, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Thomas Moncas - Son of Thomas Moncas & Hannah
Born: 18 Mar 1791
Abode: Rainford's Gardens
Occupation: Upholsterer
Register: Baptisms 1791, Page 237, Entry 336
Thomas married Hannah Abbott 1787 at St Peter Liverpool
John married Catherine Harrison in 1812 at St Anne Richmond Liverpool.
Baptism: 25 Feb 1788 St Nicholas, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
John Moncas - Son of Thomas Moncas & Hannah
Born: 5 Feb 1788
Abode: Rainford's Garden
Occupation: Upholsterer
Register: Baptisms 1788, Page 180, Entry 160
and a brother Thomas
Baptism: 17 Apr 1791 St Nicholas, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Thomas Moncas - Son of Thomas Moncas & Hannah
Born: 18 Mar 1791
Abode: Rainford's Gardens
Occupation: Upholsterer
Register: Baptisms 1791, Page 237, Entry 336
Thomas married Hannah Abbott 1787 at St Peter Liverpool
John married Catherine Harrison in 1812 at St Anne Richmond Liverpool.
Hilary
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Mike Paice
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Hi Hilary.
Sorry for the delay in responding. You have the right John Moncas and related information.
John's father (Thomas) died on 18 June 1793. His mother (Hannah nee Abbot) carried on the business (grocer/upholsterer) and re-married on 24 February 1796 (an ironmonger named Joseph Fogg). I have been unable to work out when Hannah died. John's brother died aged 6 on 10 May 1797.
John's wife (Catharine Harrison) was (I think) the daughter of Thomas Harrison (husbandman) and Nancy (nee William). If this is correct (and I have no real reason to doubt that it is), then she was born 10 December 1787. As a husbandman Catharine's father would have rented a farmstead? But could this have included such a large amount of land as 200/300 acres and could it have been left to Catharine and John? I have also yet to find the death record for Thomas Harrison, so don't yet know when and how his estate may have been divided.
I was in touch with Prescot Museum some years ago. Sadly, they know little more about John than is in the "expert" printed books about British watchmakers - and even the best of those is not very accurate (often mixing up John and his son John Francis Moncas).
Thank you so much for your continued interest in this. As always any further thoughts you may have would be greatly appreciated.
Mike.
Sorry for the delay in responding. You have the right John Moncas and related information.
John's father (Thomas) died on 18 June 1793. His mother (Hannah nee Abbot) carried on the business (grocer/upholsterer) and re-married on 24 February 1796 (an ironmonger named Joseph Fogg). I have been unable to work out when Hannah died. John's brother died aged 6 on 10 May 1797.
John's wife (Catharine Harrison) was (I think) the daughter of Thomas Harrison (husbandman) and Nancy (nee William). If this is correct (and I have no real reason to doubt that it is), then she was born 10 December 1787. As a husbandman Catharine's father would have rented a farmstead? But could this have included such a large amount of land as 200/300 acres and could it have been left to Catharine and John? I have also yet to find the death record for Thomas Harrison, so don't yet know when and how his estate may have been divided.
I was in touch with Prescot Museum some years ago. Sadly, they know little more about John than is in the "expert" printed books about British watchmakers - and even the best of those is not very accurate (often mixing up John and his son John Francis Moncas).
Thank you so much for your continued interest in this. As always any further thoughts you may have would be greatly appreciated.
Mike.
I can see these possible baptisms for a Catherine Harrison
Baptisms: 6 Apr 1783 St Nicholas, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Catherine Harrison - Daughter of James Harrison & Catherine
Born: 6 Mar 1783
Abode: Johnson street
Occupation: Husbandman
Baptisms: 13 Jan 1788 St Nicholas, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Catharine Harrison - Daughter of Thomas Harrison & Nancy
Born: 10 Dec 1787
Abode: Hackin's hey
Occupation: Husbandman
Baptisms: 5 Jul 1789 St Helen, Sefton, Lancashire, England
Catharine Harrison - Daughter of James Harrison & Ann
Abode: Ince
Baptisms: 21 Jul 1793 St Mary the Virgin, Prescot, Lancashire, England
Catharine Harrison - Daur. of John Harrison & Cathn.
Born: 1 Jul
Abode: Rainhill
Occupation: Husbandman
Baptisms: 26 Jan 1794 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Catharine Harrison - Daughter of James Harrison & Sally
Born: 8 Jan 1794
Abode: Gerard St
Register: Baptisms 1793
When and where did Catherine die and how old was she?
Baptisms: 6 Apr 1783 St Nicholas, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Catherine Harrison - Daughter of James Harrison & Catherine
Born: 6 Mar 1783
Abode: Johnson street
Occupation: Husbandman
Baptisms: 13 Jan 1788 St Nicholas, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Catharine Harrison - Daughter of Thomas Harrison & Nancy
Born: 10 Dec 1787
Abode: Hackin's hey
Occupation: Husbandman
Baptisms: 5 Jul 1789 St Helen, Sefton, Lancashire, England
Catharine Harrison - Daughter of James Harrison & Ann
Abode: Ince
Baptisms: 21 Jul 1793 St Mary the Virgin, Prescot, Lancashire, England
Catharine Harrison - Daur. of John Harrison & Cathn.
Born: 1 Jul
Abode: Rainhill
Occupation: Husbandman
Baptisms: 26 Jan 1794 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Catharine Harrison - Daughter of James Harrison & Sally
Born: 8 Jan 1794
Abode: Gerard St
Register: Baptisms 1793
When and where did Catherine die and how old was she?
Hilary
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Mike Paice
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