James Scotland Marriage

[bluekez]

I am searching for the marriage of James Scotland Sept 1/4 1846. On the BMD list there are 4 men and 4 ladies, sadly non of the ladies are the one I am searching for. However, on the Findmypast info we have 4 ladies and 5 men.....now how do I go about tracking down the missing name? I do remember doing this years ago, but have had a 4 year gap in family history.

I have the Vol and page number in West Derby, but for the life of me cannot remember how I did it the last time.

Anyone know how? without me sending of for another certificate that is not what I am looking for?

Thank you :)

[simone]

Hi and welcome

Lancs BMD http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/index.php, has
SCOTLANDJames
ELLIS Ann
Toxteth Park, St. John The Baptist Liverpool

it's on Ancestry

[bluekez]

Thank you very much, how could I have forgotten about the Lancsbmd ? Well she is not the one I wanted sadly, so back to banging my head against a wall.

Infact, I am off to search Lancs BMD and see whats changed in the past 5 years. I hear a lot more Liverpool records have been put on, or is that just on Ancestry?

[dickiesam]

Ah.. Simone you beat me to it!

This is his marriage:
Marriage: SCOTLAND, James
Registration District: West Derby; Year/qtr of registration: 1846 / Jul-Aug-Sep
Volume No: 20; Page No: 929;

He married either:
ELLIS, Ann or GRIFFITHS, Sarah or JONES, Susannah or OWENS, Ann.

What I do to try and find which lady is the wife, is to find the husband in the next census after the marriage. With a little luck she will still be with him.

You might be unlucky and find her name is Ann! So then go forwards through the censuses and you might find James' Ellis or Owens in-laws. If there are children from 1846 onwards, you might find baptisms in the Ancestry Liverpool collection. Hopefully the mother's maiden name will available.

DS

[bluekez]

I needed him to be married to a Margaret. I have a Phoebe Scotland B. 1845 Bond Street Liverpool, to James Scotland, Mariner, and Margaret (Critchelly)

I then have a James Scotland B. 1848 6 Slade Street Liverpool, to James Scotland, Mariner, and Margaret (Dorey)

Both of the Margarets are shown as being named Scotland, so I am working on the assumption that he may have married her, and since he was only 18 at the birth of the first child, he may have waited until he could shave before trying to pretend he was 21 :(

This is, all assuming we have the correct James Scotland, and also assuming that the 2 Margarets are the one and same..........with a crisis over what name to use. We think that the second child was registered by someone else........as it was done the next day, hence the confusion of surname, but it could all be fancy on my part.

They are not showing up on the census' as Scotlands, and I cannot find Phoebe again until her marriage in 1865. Tis a solid brick wall, but after a few years of ignoring them, I thought I would try again :(

[dickiesam]

Hi,
Just scoured the 1851 for any James Scotland bn between 1800 and 1851. Nearly all were born and living in Scotland. Only three were in England and one of these was a Scot, a soldier bn 1929, residing in the barracks of Her Majesty's Foot Guards, in Croydon. The 'English' two were born 1840 and 1848 in Liverpool.

Do you have James' place and year of birth?

DS

[simone]

I then have a James Scotland B. 1848 6 Slade Street Liverpool, to James Scotland, Mariner, and Margaret (Dorey)

Lancs OPC has this baptism for 1848
Baptisms: 3 Apr 1848 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
James Scotland - Child of James Scotland & Phebe
Born: 22 Mar 1848
Abode: Slate St
Occupation: Mariner
Baptised by: Thos. Halton Curate
Register: Baptisms 1847 - 1848, Page
292, Entry 2332
Source: LDS Film 93885

it is also in the Liverpool records on Ancestry

[bluekez]

:? Simone, that is what has thrown me for ages. Finally got the birth certificate this morning, and its is Margaret that is named as his mother. Birth 22nd March 1848 registered at St Martin Liverpool.

Which makes me think that James, is James Scotland, son of Alexander Scotland and Phoebe Saults, Born 1828 ish West Derby / Liverpool.......... Which makes him 17 when he got Margaret pregnant, which is nothing new.

Phoebe seems to be a bit of a battle axe, and her daughter Margaret Dorey Nee Scotland B. 1821 could be the bit that is throwing us....I have got so mixed up with that. There are 3 Margaret Scotlands, one is born Scotland, the other married into the family and died in 1851, and the other is hopefully my Margaret Critchelly, mother of Phoebe and James.

Phoebe also seems to list herself as the mother of her Grandson Thomas, I think his father is Joseph Scotland, another of her children.

[simone]

Yes I'm with you, I'm was wondering the same about James being son of Alexander maybe. There don't seem to be many Scotlands with the names you want do there?

How have you come to this point? Who have you been following back from?

I'll try and have another look but going away for weekend so may not get much done, sorry

Simone x

[bluekez]

My Gr Gr Grandmother is Phoebe Scotland B July 1845 Bond Street Liverpool.
She Married John Patrick Callaghan in Oct 1865 Liverpool
They can be seen on all the Census' from the marriage, usually traced via Phoebe Callaghan and every odd spelling that you can get Calligan etc.

I have Phoebe's marriage cert, where she states her father as John Scotland roper maker deceased. However John Patrick's father is John, so I have not put too much emphasis on the wrong name being used, until I came across the John Dorey link, as we have a John Dorey residing with Phoebe and JPatrick in the 1881 census in Windle.

I then traced Phoebe's birth certificate, there were 2 Phoebe Scotlands, one is the grandaughter of Alexander and Phoebe, born Dec 1844, and is traced with her family in the 1851 and 1861 census' and then marries and becomes Phoebe Quinn.

My Phoebe is B. 1845 father James Scotland, mariner, mother Margaret Critchelly.

NOW it gets all very confusing, there is no trace of Phoebe and James apart from their birth certs, and Phoebe is only viewable after her wedding.

There is a family of Dorey's (Dovey) in the 1851 and 1861 census' with children that match Phoebe and James, head is John Dorey, rope maker. (the John from Phoebe's wedding cert?) Wife is Margaret Dorey,(the name of James Scotland B 1848's mother) shown as a widow in 1861.
BUT this Margaret Dorey is shown in a baptism in 1864, after her marriage to Noble Wilson, as being the daughter of Alexander Scotland and Phoebe (she puts Phoebe Critchelly and not Saults) So that ends that idea :( UNLESS I can prove that Margaret Critchelly is an illegitimate daughter of a as yet untraced Phoebe Critchelly, who could have become pregnant to a completely different Alexander Scotland...... lol

Does that make sense? my head hurts.

[bluekez]

:D Hope you have a lovely weekend as well.

[simone]

Hi

Sorry haven't really had much time to have a good look, but found this marriage which could be James b c 1848



if this is James in 1891.. notice a Scotland with him


Class: RG12; Piece: 2955; Folio 9; Page 12

Marye Wilson 49
Thos Scotland 49 son in law, seaman?
James Dorey 43 stonemason son inlaw, widower
Ann Mc Kay 37 daughter
Alex Dorey 9 grandson
Phoebe Dorey 7 grand daughter
Mary Dorey 4 grandaughter

so these families definitely connected in some way


Away early in the morning..... maybe one of the crew will be able to help out a bit more over the weekend...

I look in again next week wouldn't surprise me if we have a family using 2 names... wouldn't be the first time

[bluekez]

OOh thank you. They have to be connected, as John Dorey is living with my Phoebe Callaghan in 1881. I cannot find a birth for James Dorey, but that has to be James Scotland B 1848, and brought up by John Dorey.

I am going to crack this before 2020 :)

Thank you both for your input up to now

[simone]

just updated my previous post with a census entry

[moya]

The James Scotland who married Ann Ellis in 1846 had father Robert, a merchant. The James Scotland who married Ellen Lloyd in 1847 had father Alexander a shipping master. On the 1851 census, Ellen is a widow, and the only death listed was for a James Scotland, Angelsey 1848 (Shipwreck perhaps ??). I can't quite figure this family out, did the elder Alexander born about 1785 in Scotland, have two wives with the same name ? Marriage of Alexander to Phoebe Salts 1804, daughter Ann b.1805, son James b. 1807. Then we go to Phoebe Critchley, I would tend to beleive the the late baptism into the Catholic church in 1872 of her daughter Margaret would indicate correctly the maiden name Critchley. If so, then we have Catherine b. 1820, Margaret b, 1821, William b. 1822, James b. 1824, Joseph H b.1827, Ann b. 1828, Phoebe b.1829. On the 1841 census Margaret is recorded with the family, Catherine is recorded as a servant with another family, but there is also another Margaret Scotland listed with her ??? Either these are two seperate families or Alexander did marry twice, there is quite a gap between 1807 and 1820. All the children listed married and all the certificates show Alexander as the father, either mariner, shipping master, master mariner, and in the case of Catherine, Captain in the Royal Navy. Regards Moya

[bluekez]

:D Thank you Moya, that has certainly given me something to work on.

I did not think about him marrying twice, and the Critchelly's seem to pop up as witnesses at a few of the weddings. Their daughter Isabella B 1811 seems to have married a John Durrie as well, which is just to much like John Dorey to be unconnected.

Phoebe Saults's mother is called Critchelly as well :O

[bluekez]

Sorry I have just realised what I have written. There are more children, I will try to find the list that I have had sent to me, but Nora thought there might have been more than the 8 she found, I have seen the Rose Cottage entry with Margaret and Catherine, but did not have them as being Alexander and Phoebe's children. I have Catherine's marriage to Robert Logan in 1841, and have never followed it up.

Thank you again, I will see what this angle fetches :))