Peter Fry - baptism 1891

[dickiesam]

Bit of a mystery..
While searching for non-surviving children of Thomas and Elizabeth Fry, the couple in my other post who 'disappeared' before the 1901 census, I have found this baptism on the Liverpool History Projects site:

Peter Fry - bn 1887 - bpt 1891 - parents Thomas and Elizabeth Fry [nee Pierce] @ St Brigid's.

This Peter is not in the 1891 census so is presumed to have died. But his birth isn't in the GRO Index. As for 'near-names' there's a Percy [bn Mar 1888] and a Bertie [bn Dec 1888]. The latter is known to have died in Dec qtr 1889.

The LHP site only gives minimum detail so can anyone find this baptism on Ancestry for me please and, hopefully, get the actual dates of birth and baptism.

This couple had very bad luck with their children. They had Elizabeth in 1884 who died in 1885 and another Elizabeth bn 1893 who died the same year. If Peter had died as well it lends weight to my thought that they tried for a better life and emigrated.

DS

[Barbara B]

Hi DS
No date of birth on the certificate, just the year, 1887. The baptism took place at St Brigid's in October 1891. The godmother is given as Elizabeth Pierce, no godfather.
I bet the priest read the riot act when he had a child of 4 to baptise!
Hope this is some help.
Barbara

[erika]

Was just going to post the same as Barbara and add birth Sept & 19th Oct for baptism date.

Also found another child

Joseph Fry b. 14 Nov 1894 bap 5 May 1896 at St Francis Xavier
Matrina fuit Joanna Green

And just to add this one, maybe a coincidence
Albertus Michael Sarsfield b. 31 Oct 1897 bap 14 Nov 1897 at Holy Cross
Parents Jacobi Thomas Sarsfield and Ada Fry.

I have also sent you an email with Elizabeth's baptism (1893) on it. Couldn't save it to post on here, maybe someone else can do that. There was something strange written at the side, in Latin I presume. Would like to know what it means.

Cheers
Erika

[Alison C]

There's a Peter Foy registered Q2 1887 in Toxteth Park 8b 191.

Typo maybe?

[erika]

Just noticed that one Alison, but in the actual register it is in with FOY and he does turn up again in the 1891 census.
Back to the drawing board!
Thought I'd found another spelt wrongly too, Peter Fay b 1887, but he also turns up in 1891.

Cheers
Erika

[Blue70]

I have also sent you an email with Elizabeth's baptism (1893) on it. Couldn't save it to post on here, maybe someone else can do that. There was something strange written at the side, in Latin I presume. Would like to know what it means.

Cheers
Erika

Elizabeth Fry baptism 1893:-





Peter Fry baptism 1891:-






Blue

[erika]

Thanks Blue

Any ideas what that bit says, I thought I saw morbis in the writing. DS said she died the same year, so maybe it was something to do with Last Rites. I'm not Catholic so am not familiar with the practices.

Cheers
Erika

[gensec]

I think the inference is that the child was at death's door.
An Elizabeth Fry aged 9 months (abode Mount Pleasant) was buried
at Walton Park on 21st August 1893.
Gensec

[dickiesam]

Where to start in responses?
Erika:

And just to add this one, maybe a coincidence
Albertus Michael Sarsfield b. 31 Oct 1897 bap 14 Nov 1897 at Holy Cross
Parents Jacobi Thomas Sarsfield and Ada Fry.

Ada Fry was Thomas Fry's sister. James Thomas and Ada were my paternal g.parents. Albert was their 3rd child.

Erika:

Joseph Fry b. 14 Nov 1894 bap 5 May 1896 at St Francis Xavier
Matrina fuit Joanna Green

Almost certain to be another child to Thomas and Elizabeth. The sponsor has the same name as that of a sponsor to a child of Elizabeth's brother Thomas Pierce. Joseph, although born in November 1894, wasn't registered until March qtr 1895.

And Blue: Thank you for the certs. Especially the Petrus aka Peter one. Still a mystery as to when he was registered, if he was, and what happened to him. The baptism is dated 19 October 1891 so he should be somewhere in the '91 census.

Gensec:

I think the inference is that the child was at death's door.
An Elizabeth Fry aged 9 months (abode Mount Pleasant) was buried
at Walton Park on 21st August 1893.

That child was the the 2nd Elizabeth born to Thomas and Elizabeth Fry and died on the 19th of August 1893 from Phthisis Abdominalis [before you reach for the Medical Journal.. that's Tuberculosis affecting the mesenteric glands or the intestines]. I am certain you are correct in that the baptism was also the Last Rites because the date on the cert is the same as her death.

Sorry if I have missed anyone from the 'credits'. All help gratefully received.

DS

[dickiesam]

That margin notation on the baptism cert of Elizabeth Fry...

Ob imminens mortis periculum means "on account of imminent danger of death (justification for an emergency baptism."

It is also on the foot of the cert immediately before her's.

DS

[dickiesam]

Erika:

Joseph Fry b. 14 Nov 1894 bap 5 May 1896 at St Francis Xavier
Matrina fuit Joanna Green

While I can't find his parents in 1901 fairly sure I have found Joseph.

1901:
FRY, Joseph - Pauper Inmate - 7 - Attends School - Liverpool.
Address: Kirkdale Industrial School, Westminster Road, Kirkdale, Lancashire.
RG13 - Piece:3472 - Folio:253 - Page:7.

Question for our resident Records experts... Wondering if the registers are available and where? Why was he there? And there's a possiblity he ended up in Canada?

DS

[Tina]

Hi D.S
There's a Joseph S Fry bn 1893 who went from Lpool to Halifax, Canada in 1906.
There was also an Albert E bn 1897 and a William S bn 1895.
I don't know if there is any connection to your Fry's.

Tina

[Barbara B]

DS you probably already have this info but I thought it was interesting. In the 1891 census Thomas and Elizabeth seem to be living apart. Elizabeth is with her parents and Thomas is with his mother. Unfortunately no sign of Peter.
Barbara

[MaryA]

If he was in Kirkdale Industrial School it may have been for misdemeanours or it may have been because of losing a parent/s.

253 SEL is the reference number for the Records, however some of them are way out for the dates you are interested in, but hopefully you will be lucky. Put "Kirkdale Industrial" into the search text to see the list in the Liverpool Records Office search

Boys from this sort of establishment would likely be prime candidates for shipping off to Canada or elsewhere.

[MaryA]

The school closed in 1904 so you may not get records of him being sent abroad from there if Tina's find is correct.

You can read more about the school on the Workhouses site http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Liverpool/

[dickiesam]

So many responses!

Tina:

Hi D.S
There's a Joseph S Fry bn 1893 who went from Lpool to Halifax, Canada in 1906.
There was also an Albert E bn 1897 and a William S bn 1895.
I don't know if there is any connection to your Fry's.

Thanks Tina, I saw those entries. The Albert and William are not mine and with Joseph, although the YoB is about right, I haven't found anything that would indicate he has a forename initial S, from birth, baptism and the 1901 census.

Barbara:

DS you probably already have this info but I thought it was interesting. In the 1891 census Thomas and Elizabeth seem to be living apart. Elizabeth is with her parents and Thomas is with his mother. Unfortunately no sign of Peter.
Barbara

I have been mystified about that 1891 census ever since I found them apart. They were living together in 1893 when their 2nd daughter named Elizabeth was born and died. Now even more curious because Peter isn't to be found in 1891 despite being baptised in October of that year. Wondering if he was in fact registered as Percy Fry in March qtr 1888. There's a Bertie bn Dec 1888 but he died in Dec 1889.

MaryA:

If he was in Kirkdale Industrial School it may have been for misdemeanours or it may have been because of losing a parent/s.

253 SEL is the reference number for the Records, however some of them are way out for the dates you are interested in, but hopefully you will be lucky. Put "Kirkdale Industrial" into the search text to see the list in the Liverpool Records Office search

Boys from this sort of establishment would likely be prime candidates for shipping off to Canada or elsewhere.

I'll follow through on that reference and see what there is. Right now I would like to find out where his parents are. If he was simply abandoned I will never forgive them!

I checked the Child Emigration to Canada (1870-1957) site but his name is not in the claimed or unclaimed list. Doesn't mean he wasn't sent there of course.

DS