Mary Carolan died March qtr 1873 - Maiden name?

Post by **dickiesam** » 23 Jan 2012 18:07

I have two wee problems. How did Mary Carolan give birth a year after she died and what was her maiden name? Read on.....

Background....
Mary Carolan, bn abt 1828 Ireland, was the wife of Patrick Carolan, bn abt 1830 Ireland. Their first child Patrick was born in Ireland abt 1859 so I assume they were married there. Birth years are from the 1871 census.

The 1881 census shows a daughter Elizabeth was born in Liverpool about 1874. There are only 2 registrations around that time and both are in 1874:
Births Jun 1874: Carolan, Elizabeth - Liverpool - 8b - 160.
Births Dec 1874: Carolan, Elizabeth - Liverpool - 8b - 201.

I believe one of these was a late registration because Mary Carolan died in 1873:
Deaths Mar 1873: Carolan, Mary - 45 - Liverpool - 8b - 132

Question!
Is there any chance that Elizabeth's baptism is in the Ancestry collection and does it give Mary's maiden name?

There was another Carolan birth in 1867 but I don't know if it was to this family. The child died 18 months later.
Births Dec 1867: Carolan, Mary Elizabeth - W. Derby - 8b - 406.
Deaths Jun 1869: Carolan, Mary Elizabeth - 1 - W Derby - 8b - 289.

Again, is there a baptism?

DS

Post by **golflimatango** » 23 Jan 2012 18:43

Found one of the 1874 births but the mother was Helen:

Name: Elizabeth Carolan
Birth Date: 7 May 1874
Baptism Date: 10 May 1874
Parish: St Nicholas
Father's Name: Patritu Carolan
Mother's Name: Helenae Green

Post by **erika** » 23 Jan 2012 18:56

The Mary Carolan who died in 1873 was age 45 and died in Liverpool Workhouse and was buried 11 Feb 1873 at Ford.

Maybe Patrick got together with Helen and Elizabeth was the result!! Can't find a marriage for Patrick and Helen

Cheers
Erika

Post by **dickiesam** » 23 Jan 2012 20:16

Thank you both, Golflimatango and Erika,
Talk about 'the plot thickens'...
I hadn't considered that Elizabeth might be the offspring of another 'union' and so soon after Mary had passed. I think she probably died in the infirmary.

There's only one Elizabeth in the 1881, with her widowed father Patrick and brother Patrick, but there isn't a death for the other one. And what happened to Helen Carolan nee Green, mother? She didn't die in the meantime so did she go back to being a Green?

Hopefully the baptism for the Mary Elizabeth bn 1867 will turn up with the other '74 Elizabeth.

Thanks again,

DS

Post by **erika** » 23 Jan 2012 22:24

I did find a marriage for Elizabeth Carolan to Thomas Battersby Pierce in Mar qtr 1891 at Liverpool Register Office

Later there were a few baptisms for children from that marriage
Thomas 1892
Sara 1894
Helena 1896 ( interesting name! )
Joannes 1897

Don't know if any of this is relevant

Cheers
Erika

Post by **simone** » 23 Jan 2012 22:45

Hi

Do you know what happened to young Elizabeth

could this be her marriage in Mar q 1891
CAROLAN Elizabeth
PIERCE Thomas B
Liverpool, Register Office or Registrar Attended
vol 8b page 329

which could lead to 1891 census... Elizabeth age 17

Rawsthorne Square
RG12; Piece: 2900; Folio 71; Page 14

Post by **simone** » 23 Jan 2012 22:47

snap Erika

Post by **dickiesam** » 23 Jan 2012 22:58

Hello Erika and Simone,
Thank you for the info. Yes that marriage is relevant. I was working back from Thomas Pierce and Elizabeth in the 1891 census. Seems Elizabeth was only 17 when she married and there may have been a shotgun in the background! Thomas' sister Elizabeth Pierce married Thomas Fry in 1883.

Thomas Fry [bn Liverpool 1864] was my paternal g.mother's only brother. In the 1891 census his wife is with her parents and he is with his widowed mother. In 1893 they had a daughter Elizabeth and were living together in 12 Sun Street but the daughter died at 7 months. There were no other living children up to 1893 and then I lose track of them. Neither are in the 1901 or 1911 and neither die it seems.

I recall my dad saying he had relatives in the US but he was sketchy on details. I have accounted for everyone on both sides of the family except Thomas and his wife. There is a record of a male passenger T Fry leaving Liverpool for New York in 1893 and another in 1901 but so far I have not been able to follow up on them.

DS

Post by **erika** » 24 Jan 2012 10:47

DS

Just to give you the full baptisms of Elizabeth & Thomas Pierce, some additional names maybe useful

Thomas Pierce b. 22 Dec 1892 bap. 23 Jan 1893 at St Oswald
Matrina fuit Elizabeth Fry

Sara Pierce b. 5 Jan 1894 bap. 23 Jan 1894 at Sacred Heart
Matrina fuit Veronica Jenkinson

Helena Pierce b. 27 Apr 1896 bap. 3 May 1896 at St Francis Xavier
Matrina fuit Elizabeth Fry

Joannes Pierce b. 10 Aug 1897 bap. 23 Aug 1897 at St Francis Xavier
Matrina fuit Joanna Green

No Patrina fuit are named.

Cheers
Erika

Post by **Hilary** » 24 Jan 2012 11:16

www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk lists the baptism of 2 children of Thomas Battersby Pierce and Elizabeth Carolan.

Thomas in 1893 at St oswald born 1892

Sara in 1894 at Sacred Heart

Post by **dickiesam** » 24 Jan 2012 13:50

Thank you ladies for the additional info. All grist to the mill....

One baptism, from Erika, is particularly interesting.

Helena Pierce b. 27 Apr 1896 bap. 3 May 1896 at St Francis Xavier
Matrina fuit Elizabeth Fry

The Elizabeth Fry who dropped off the radar with her spouse Thomas sometime after 1893 was probably the sponsor/godmother named and would have been an aunt. That means she was still in Liverpool in 1896. Although her mother-in-law was also Elizabeth Fry and was still going strong, she would have been 54. More likely a youngish aunt than a middle-aged g.mother would be a sponsor?

So if Thomas and Elizabeth Fry did emigrate it was after May 1896 when she left.

DS