Circumstantial evidence ....

[BurscoughLad]

Happy New Year to you all.

My gg grandfather, Robert CLARKE, is shown on 1841 census, living in Everton, with his wife, Sarah and their son, Ambrose aged 8 and daughter, Sarah Ann, aged 18 months. Sarah Ann is my g grandmother.

On 1851 census, Sarah, aged 51, is shown as having been born in London.
Robert was born ca 1810, ie 41.

There is a marriage preceded by banns on 23 December 1832, between Robert CLARKE and Sarah SEGROATT at St George the Martyr, Queens Square, Bloomsbury. (Pg 49/ Entry 146)

Also, there are no ages given in the register, which might have helped.

There is another Robert/Sarah marriage in Shoreditch in March 1827, but I think that is an unlikely candidate

Has anyone any ideas how I might connect these pieces together??
I haven't been able to find any birth/baptism record for Ambrose, which might have a mother's maiden name.

Thanks

[MaryA]

son, Ambrose aged 8 and daughter, Sarah Ann, aged 18 months......

I haven't been able to find any birth/baptism record for Ambrose, which might have a mother's maiden name.

You wouldn't find a birth registration for Ambrose since he was born - if 8 years old is accurate - before Civil Registration began, and many baptisms, unless RC, didn't give the mother's maiden name.

The birth/baptism that you need to look for is that of Sarah Ann around about 1839, hopefully her birth was registered.

[dickiesam]

A search on FreeBMD for a birth of Sarah Ann Clark(e) between 1839 and 1840 gives 4 hits.
Births Mar 1840:
Clarke, Sarah Ann - Liverpool - 20 - 400.
Clarke, Sarah Ann - Liverpool - 20 - 409.
Clarke, Sarah Ann - W Derby - 20 - 572.
Clarke, Sarah Ann - W. Derby - 20 - 872.

However two of these entries are corrections. The entries in bold are the corrected ones.

The family's address in 1841 is Kensington Place, Liverpool. In 1851 they are at Richard Street, West Derby. This suggests to me the right birth is the one registered in Liverpool - 20 - 409. As MaryA says, the baptism is probably the data to search for sometime in the March or June qtr of 1840. Otherwise it is take-a-chance-on-a-cert-time!

DS

[MaryA]

Did they have another child born a couple of years later?

Baptism at St Peter's Liverpool on 17th January, 1842 for
Robert Clarke of Northampton Street, parents Robert and Sarah - occupation Labourer.

Also at St Paul's, Liverpool on 31st May, 1837
Mary Clarke of Northampton Street, parents Robert and Sarah - occupation Carter.

Also at St Peter's, 25th August, 1844
Thomas Clarke of Norfolk Street, parents Robert and Sarah - occupation Zinc Worker

[MaryA]

I'm sorry that I haven't been able to find a baptism for Sarah Ann - only one for a Clark (no e) and parents were Robert & Jane, father's occupation butcher and living Prince Edward Street, so I would be fairly sure that this one is incorrect.

If you think that the others I gave above could be part of the family, there might hopefully be enough information - particularly with the address, to apply to Liverpool Register Office or even the GRO, and ask for the certificate with those parents names. One of these should give you Sarah's maiden name.

[simone]

poss marriage at Edge Hill 1829 of Robert Clarke to Sarah Cooper... worth bearing in mind after you have confirmation of maiden name they may well have married in Liverpool rather than her home of London

Simone x

[simone]

Did they have another child born a couple of years later?

Baptism at St Peter's Liverpool on 17th January, 1842 for
Robert Clarke of Northampton Street, parents Robert and Sarah - occupation Labourer.

Also at St Paul's, Liverpool on 31st May, 1837
Mary Clarke of Northampton Street, parents Robert and Sarah - occupation Carter.

Also at St Peter's, 25th August, 1844
Thomas Clarke of Norfolk Street, parents Robert and Sarah - occupation Zinc Worker

Hi Mary

also child Elizabeth, whilst at Northampton Street, in 1828

Baptisms: 20 Jul 1828 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Clarke - Child of Robert Clarke & Sarah
Northampton St
Labourer


Simone x

[BurscoughLad]

Hi folks,

Thanks for all your comments. Certainly gives me something to chew over.

I only have Ambrose as a sibling at present.

Sarah Ann's first child was "Ambrosine"; her last was my grandfather.

This is early days for this particular branch, so I guess it is important to be sure of what you are building on.

I have been homing in on the Ambrose element, rather than looking at the Sarah Ann possibilities.

Thanks again for helping me re-focus.

[MaryA]

My mistake, I was looking later for clues, rather than earlier.

[MaryA]

Might well be barking up the wrong tree with those baptisms.

1851 has at 11 Court, Northampton Street
Robert 56 Labourer born Lancashire, Sarah 49 born somewhere in Cheshire, and Mary 11, Robert 9 and Joseph 7, all born Liverpool.

I still think you would be right to focus on Sarah Ann, but seems it would have to be a birth certificate rather than baptism. Dickiesam's suggestions would be worth enquiring at the Register Office or GRO, giving the parents names.

[BurscoughLad]

Forgot to mention that Robert is a warehouseman in both the 1851 census and on Sarah Ann's marriage cert to John Redding in 1860

[simone]

Hi

These marriages may be yours






Simone x

[simone]

not so sure now

there is a Job Clarke who liooks to be son of Sarah b c 1801 Frodsham, Cheshire, so this may be him

1861 Inkworks...Northampton St
RG9; Piece: 2669; Folio: 61; Page: 26

sorry.. worth a try

[simone]

so this means there have been 2 Robert Clarke's, Warehouseman

there are 2 Sarah Ann Clarkes born about the same time... 1 with Robert and Sarah... another with Alice as mother.... are we sure Alice hasn't been married to a Robert

also can't find Job in 1851

mind you Sarah naming child as Ambrosina points to Robert and sarah doesn't it

argghhhh

[Hilary]

There's a big gap between Ambrose and Sarah Ann. Could Ambrose be from a previous relationship? For that matter what happens to Ambrose as I can't find him after 1841.

Could his name be a clue?

[BurscoughLad]

Hi Simone

Yes, I am certain that there are at least two Robert & Sarah's about the same period, so it does make me want to be sure that I have the right ones before I can build on it.

There are two in London (ref my opening post) and it would be just my luck that they both end up in Liverpool!!! So, there could well be others. Haven't really checked that out yet!

Hilary, I hadn't considered the gap, as Sarah Ann lost at least two of six of her children before they were five years old - and that was in the 1860's.

I guess that I need to consider all these valid points before the tree additions are made. Otherwise, it will be "act in haste, repent at leisure"!!!

Thanks again for your interest.

[simone]

re Ambrose

could this be him from IGI


Ambrose Clarke
Birth Date:1836
Age: 40
Bride's Name: Esther Ennion
Birth Date: 1852
Age: 24
Marriage Date: 04 Sep 1876
Walton-On-The-Hill, Lancashire, England
Groom's Father's Name: Robert Clarke
Bride's Father's Name: Robert Ennion
Bride's Mother's Name:
Groom's Marital Status: Single
Bride's Marital Status: Single


can't see them on census

there is another Ambrose married to Elizabethon census' but he is too young b c 1866

[dickiesam]

Good find Simone!

Ambrose Clarke
Birth Date:1836
Age: 40
Bride's Name: Esther Ennion
Birth Date: 1852
Age: 24

Unfortunately, Esther is shown as a widow in 1881. RG11 - 3587 - 59 - 54.
And Ambrose isn't there because..
Death: CLARKE, Ambrose
Vessel: Palestine
Country: At sea
Year: 1878
Page: 138
Age at death: 44
Source: GRO Marine Death Indices (1846 to 1902).

Esther [aka Eter and Easther!] is in the 1871 here: RG10 - 3751 - 160 - 3; and in 1861 here: RG09 - 2646 - 81 - 43.

It looks like we can't find Ambrose from 1841 to his marriage because he was at sea. And it looks certain you have found the right man!

DS

[BurscoughLad]

Hi Simone / DS,

Looks like that's cracked it as far as Ambrose is concerned.

Did seaman have ID's back then??

I found my dad's seaman's ID about 6 months ago and have the ships' details / voyages for 1928-31.

Thanks for your input

[BurscoughLad]

Just a thought ....

If he was on a British flagged ship, would there be a census return??