NORAH DAVIES - SYDNEY USHER

Post by **simone** » 20 Dec 2011 21:37

lol Sue

reckon they were trying to cover their tracks good style

sad though.. I bet it was a worry for him, having been married before.. and we don't know why he and Agnes split.. maybe it wasn't his fault

so there must be another child who died somewhere

anyway to sum up

John marries Agnes 1896... they split.. she marries William Watson Gurney and poss goes to Canada.
John meets Norah and has Jessie in Dec 1901, they baptise her West, his mother's maiden name

John and Norah go on to have Norah and Sarah... but by 1911 he is 'travelling'
He passes away in 1915, buried in Toxteth Park.

still need birth for young Norah and still don't really know who mum Norah is.. maybe the young girl who arrived in Liverpool in 1899

Simone x

Post by **Sue H** » 20 Dec 2011 21:42

Well I am so excited..............we always knew that Nan hid something, but what a story huge family, starting in Bombay, travellers, proffessiional dancer, Bigamist, living over the brush, children out of wedlock........I love it!!! This would be a good one for your magazine!!

So could Nora have been origianlly registered as West........Hence Liverpool saying her fathers name was no same as nan.........

Post by **simone** » 20 Dec 2011 21:48

can't see Norah under West... I'm still tempted by 1904 birth reg under Davies

Norah Davies
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1904
Registration district: West Derby
Inferred County Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 619

Post by **Sue H** » 20 Dec 2011 21:51

so should I just order that birth certificate and see what turns up!!

Post by **Alison C** » 20 Dec 2011 22:00

There's also a birth for a Norah May Davies in Q2 1904 West Derby 8b 328.

Could that be her?

Post by **simone** » 21 Dec 2011 07:38

lol Alison... who woke up in the night remembering Norah May Davies reg, me !!

think you would have to ask for check on parents names

wonder what happened to Jessie though?

and wonder who the other missing child was

Post by **simone** » 21 Dec 2011 07:52

Alison C wrote:Well spotted, Simone!

I'm not sure though that this John William Davies is the one who married Agnes Taylor as the age isn't correct. Their marriage gives his age in 1896 as 23 which implies he was born in 1873 not 1878.

However, his father William Davies was a plumber which does tie in with the occupation of the John William who married Agnes...maybe he was just a bit creative with his age!!

know what you mean Alison.. but ages are often wrong aren't they... suppose we have nothing to prove for definite.. shame one of his rellies didn't witness it

still there must be a reason he didn't marry Norah and I reckon it could be that the first marriage is him

see you later

Simone x

Post by **Sue H** » 21 Dec 2011 08:01

Hi Simon

I am another one that couldnt sleep!! Jessie we know survived and grew to old age, because we met her in our childhood!!I have photos of them all but have tried to use that photo upload but cant!! Because we couldnt find them as a family we thought maybe Jessie was another relation.
What is a puzzle now is the photo of who we thought was there mother, could now be their grandmother.

All night I have wondered if Norah (mother with many names) left for younger Hubby, did Norah and Sarah go to join Jessie at grandma house??
And yes who was the other child

Jessie may have married someone called Woodridge, but not sure now because she would have been know as West not Davies as we thought.

Also there is an element of doubt with Norah about whos the daddy!! When Liverpool Reg called me to say Nan's certificate was on the way but with a different mothers name, she explained that the birth certificate and date I had given them for Norah had a different father to John William Davies and they would be refunding my money. In the light of what I know now I should have gone a head with it.............although after here I think I will just take a chance and order it anyway

I cant thank everyone enough for solving this for me, looking at the bits of paper on this desk it going to be a task in its self to make it into a family tree

I am going to keep looking for the other child, but under what name?

And I hope there is some way of tracing what happen to them all after 1911

Sue

Post by **simone** » 21 Dec 2011 08:26

Sue H wrote:Simone

When liverpool rang me to say they could not find the right birth certificiate for Norah, they did query whether the Norah(sister) was infact the mother...but the certificate I was looking for was 23 April 1903 take off her death certificate details

Hi Sue

If you gave them this date, it can't be right because Jane Helen was born the next month. This must be a different Norah, so that will be why the record office couldn't match her up to the right parents.

I think Norah's dad is most likely John. They have baptised her as such , although under name of West. Also if she is the birth registered under Davies, I think they have tried to legitimise her this way.

Don't you have any idea what happened to mum Norah

We know she was still with the children in 1911... John dies in 1915... maybe she remarried

there is a possible death under Davies in 1960

Post by **Sue H** » 21 Dec 2011 08:40

Hi Simone

I think I could have put wrong year, will try again with 23 april 1904!! I couldnt find a baptism for Norah or Sarah, but I was looking for Davies not West will try again

Did find a marriage for Norah Coventry who wed a Mr Fagan in 1948, but unless I send for the marriage certificate I wont be able to tell, its only the short version on the site.

but I will go with Norah West or Davies to start with and see what that comes up with..........once again many thanks, and if I can do the same for anyone else I will be more than happy to help

Sue

Post by **simone** » 21 Dec 2011 09:17

good luck Sue

wouldn't worry about the Coventry's, pretty sure they are nothing to do with it

Simone x

Post by **Alison C** » 21 Dec 2011 12:16

I think Jessie May was registered as Davies even though she was baptised as West!

There is the following entry on FreeBMD for Q1 1902:

DAVIES Jessie May Toxteth Park 8b 192

There is then the marriage of Jessie M Davies to Mr Wooding in Q2 1924:

DAVIES Jessie M Wooding Liverpool 8b 406

And the death of Jessie May Wooding is shown on Ancestry.

Re: the use of the name West, if John W was a professional dancer at some point, I wonder if this was some sort of stage name??

Perhaps he changed occupation to become a painter when he had a family to support and needed a more stable job? If he is the son of William Davies and Sara West Smart, then there are other graves in Toxteth Park cemetery for William's brothers - all of whom seem to have been painters.

Alison

Post by **Alison C** » 21 Dec 2011 12:18

PS. Agnes Longley Taylor and her second "husband" William Watson Gurney seem to have end up in South Africa. He died in WW1 and is recorded on the CWGC site

Post by **simone** » 21 Dec 2011 12:27

Good finds Alison

it's all coming together

wonder if Agnes told William she had been married before

reckon John was a good man... tried to make a good life with Norah and those little ones.. must have worried at being found out.. but still didn't break the law and marry Norah

wonder how John died

Simone x

Post by **Sue H** » 21 Dec 2011 19:14

Hi Simone

have decide next death certificate on the list is John William Davies.

Another thought I had while out today is, in the grave in Toxteth were John is buried is also a child...........she was thought to be John's brother Charles child...........could it in fact be the missing John and Norah's child

After I have sorted out this family tree, I think I will start on Sara West Davies/Jones other relatives. I would love to know what they were doing in Bombay and if anyone living has photographs of any of them....but thats the New Year challenge!!

Also going to follow thro on Anges..........

Sue

Post by **Sue H** » 21 Dec 2011 20:45

found John William Davies he died in the great war 1914-1919
John William Davies
Residence: Liverpool
Death Date: 24 Dec 1915
Death Location: Home
Enlistment Location: Liverpool
Rank: Private
Regiment: King's (Liverpool Regiment)
Battalion: 10th Battalion
Number: 5004
Type of Casualty: Died
Theatre of War: Home

What a christmas the girls and nora must have had

Post by **simone** » 21 Dec 2011 20:49

Hi Sue

will interesting to see what he died of... I see he died at home

Simone x

Post by **Alison C** » 22 Dec 2011 13:00

Another thought I had while out today is, in the grave in Toxteth were John is buried is also a child...........she was thought to be John's brother Charles child...........could it in fact be the missing John and Norah's child

There are 2 children in the grave:

Lilian Elizabeth born and died 1912 so she couldn't have been the one mentioned in the 1911 census. Also, her mother's maiden name was Roberts - so not John and Norah's

John Francis Davies - died Q4 1907 aged 7. The only potential birth I can see for him is Q1 1901 in Birkenhead. However, as Jessie May was born less than 1 year later, I don't think he was John and Norah's either

Post by **Sue H** » 24 Dec 2011 15:20

Hi folks

the birth certificate arrived

Sara Davies was born at 33 Eden Street, Liverpool, John Williams Davies dad and Norah Davies formerly Prendergast mum . John William was a house painter, journeyman..........which i have found out was:

The word journeyman comes from the French word journee, which means the period of one day. The title refers to the journeyman's right to charge a fee for each day's work. Journeyman would normally be employed by a master craftsman, but would live apart and might have a family of their own. A journeyman could not employ others. In contrast, an apprentice would be bound to a master, usually for a fixed term of seven years, and lived with the master as a member of the household, receiving most or all compensation in the form of food and lodging.

In parts of Europe, as in later medieval Germany, spending time as a journeyman (Geselle), moving from one town to another to gain experience of different workshops, was an important part of the training of an aspirant master. Carpenters in Germany have retained the tradition of traveling journeymen even today, although only a few still practice it. In France, journeymen were known as compagnons.

The terms jack and knave are sometimes used as informal words for journeyman. Hence the expression "jack of all trades, master of none" as someone who is educated in several fields, but is not an expert in any one.

Norah and John Williams birth/death cert on order!!

Can I ask..... I now know about them up to 1911, but not if they stayed together as a family. John obviously joined the army, and from my baby book, seems most probable that nan and norah joined jessie at Sara West Jones, the grandmothers house........how can i find pictures of maybe the roads they lived in and pick up the story from 1911.

hope you all have a very merry christmas may next year be a happy and safe one to you and all you families..........Sue

Post by **dickiesam** » 24 Dec 2011 16:18

Hello Sue,
A happy Christmas to you and yours.. and even more progress on the family search front in the New Year!

Re Liverpool streets.. there are several sites with photos of old Liverpool. Just google 'photos of old liverpool' and you'll have an indication of what is out there. It would be an idea to make a list of the streets you are interested in, together with an approximate date of tenure, and post it as a new topic. I for one will have plenty of browsing time available in the next week!

Here's a sample.. http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/ind ... c=235587.0

DS