Rose Ann Kennedy, late Wilson, formerly Cunningham or Quinn

Post by **aop27** » 18 Dec 2011 20:31

I've an interesting "problem" with Rose Ann Kennedy.

I know that she was the mother of Mary Ann Wilson who was born 2nd May 1843 in Liverpool (source: 1). I know that she married Thomas Wilson, a mariner, on the 10th January 1842 in The Parish Church, Liverpool (2) and give her father as Francis Cunningham, a labourer. Thomas Wilson's fate hasn't been determined but I know that she married John Kennedy on 2 Apr 1851 at St. Mary, Birkenhead (3).

Rose is listed on the 1851 census (4) with husband John the 8 year old Mary Ann and a 2 year old John Kennedy (yes - I realize the census was a couple of days before her wedding over on the Wirral. She later appears in the 1861 (5) and 1871 (6) census entries with children Francis and Catherine.

I've traced baptism records and birth certificates all of the children (no certificate found for Mary Ann, John or Agnes - who doesn't appear on a census). They all are convincingly from the correct parents but Rose varies her maiden name regularly:

• Mary Ann Wilson - 7 May 1843
- baptism - Rose Cunningham

• John Kennedy - 11/4/1849
- baptism - Rose Cunningham

• Agnes Kennedy - 10/12/1850
- baptism - Rosa Quinn

• Francis Kennedy - 15/3/1852
- baptism - Rose Cunningham - looks to be originally Quinn with the name over-written"
- certificate - late Wilson, formerly Quinn

• Catherine Kennedy - 30/11/1856
- baptism - Rose Quinn
- certificate - late Wilson, formerly Cunningham

In addition to this confusion the 1861 census which shows Rose Kennedy at 60 Lower Harrington Street also shows a Quinn family at number 58 while the 1841 census shows a Rose (18) and Alice (60) at what looks to be 60 Lower Harrington Street.

The question that I'm looking for feedback on is what was Rose's maiden name? My guess (with no facts to support it - and I'm a fan of facts where possible) is that she was the daughter of Alice Quinn and Francis Cunningham and that the couple were unmarried. If anyone has any thoughts though I'd be keen to explore them.

Thanks

A

Selected sources:
1. baptism of Mary Ann Wilson (1843, St Patrick's Chapel, Liverpool))
2. marriage certificate of Thomas Wilson and Rose Cunningham (1842, Liverpool).
3. marriage record of John Kennedy and Rose Wilson (1851, IGI)
4. 1851 census of 3 Sefton Street (HO107/2186 f303 p32)
5. 1861 census of Harrington Road, Toxteth Park (RG9/2699 f52 p10).
6. 1871 census of Prince William Street (RG10/3797 f125 p23).

Post by **dickiesam** » 18 Dec 2011 21:04

Hi,
There are two Mary Ann births in 1843 and the second one matches the DoB from the baptism.
Births Mar 1843: Wilson, Mary Ann - Liverpool - 20 - 380
Births Jun 1843: WILSON, Mary Ann - Wt. Derby - 20 - 912.

With regard to her mother's maiden name, I am, like you puzzled by the mention of Quinn. The description on the later birth certs should read 'Kennedy, late Wilson, formerly Cunningham'. I assume her marriage cert to John Kennedy shows her as a widow [formerly Cunningham]?

Is it possible she was actually born Quinn and her mother then married the father Francis Cunningham? That would explain her 'confusion'.

DS

Post by **aop27** » 18 Dec 2011 21:40

Thanks DS - not sure how I managed to conclude that I couldn't find a certificate for Mary Ann - I'll order the second of them tonight.

I haven't got the marriage certificate for John Kennedy & Rose. I only just found the marriage tonight on the IGI - it was over in Birkenhead for no known reason. The IGI entry obviously needs to be validated and I need to check the marriage and banns if possible for St Mary's Birkenhead. The IGI lists her as a widow but no detailed wording is given.

Interesting observation that both her marriages are in CofE churches and all children baptised Catholics - a line that survived until the 20th century.

The most telling birth is Catherine Kennedy. Her birth certificate clearly reads "Rose Ann Kennedy late Wilson formerly Cunningham" while the baptism at St Peter's Priory reads (RC so Latin) "Joannis et Rosanna Kennedy (olim Quinn)"

Post by **dickiesam** » 18 Dec 2011 22:52

This would appear to be the Kennedy/Wilson marriage.
From FreeBMD...
Marriages Jun 1851:
KENNEDY, John - Wirral - 19 - 329.
Wilson, Rose - Wirral - 19 - 329.

Re:

Interesting observation that both her marriages are in CofE churches and all children baptised Catholics - a line that survived until the 20th century.

EDITED 24/12/11...
My response removed because it was factually incorrect.
This is a quote from Blue70's correct response below.
It used to be quite common for catholics to marry in C of E churches it wasn't connected to the legal restrictions of the old days. They still baptised their children in an RC church perhaps considering marriage to be more of a legal than a religious requirement. Perhaps it was cheaper and easier to get married at a C of E church. At an RC church you would have to obtain a certificate instead of banns and then pay both the priest and the registrar. At a C of E church three readings of the banns would suffice plus the vicar acted as the registrar.

DS

Post by **MaryA** » 19 Dec 2011 10:50

Presumably they must have spent a short while living on the Wirral, maybe for work, hope the marriage certificate will clear up matters since it should give her father's name.

Post by **aop27** » 23 Dec 2011 22:13

Well I now have the marriage certificate and it clears nothing up. The marriage is quite definitely the right couple - both father's names match and occupation matches however:

1. She is listed as "spinster" - even though she effectively recognises her own previous marriage by giving her surname as Wilson and her father's name as Francis Cunningham.

2. The marriage is at Birkenhead St Mary's on the 2nd of April & by banns - presumably having been read out the previous three Sundays. On the 30th March I have the couple at 3 Sefton Street in Toxteth - an address that they still had in 1852 when their third child Francis was baptised at St Patrick's. Despite this they list their residence as "Birkenhead" - not separate addresses but the single word "Birkenhead" written between the two names.

Post by **Blue70** » 24 Dec 2011 00:18

It used to be quite common for catholics to marry in C of E churches it wasn't connected to the legal restrictions of the old days. They still baptised their children in an RC church perhaps considering marriage to be more of a legal than a religious requirement. Perhaps it was cheaper and easier to get married at a C of E church. At an RC church you would have to obtain a certificate instead of banns and then pay both the priest and the registrar. At a C of E church three readings of the banns would suffice plus the vicar acted as the registrar.

RC couples marrying elsewhere was considered to be such a problem that the church introduced a new marriage law in 1908 making only marriages at RC churches valid. It is after this date that the practice of adding the information about subsequent marriages to the baptism entries were introduced. When the marriage parties applied for their baptism details the priest was meant to add the new information but some of them were more efficient than others.

Blue

Post by **simone** » 24 Dec 2011 15:31

Hi

Sorry, I've nothing much to add

but this post reminded me of the Lennon's we all spent a long time looking for....mysteriously they were on the census using the name Quinn

.... no apparant reason for it

Simone x

Post by **simone** » 24 Dec 2011 15:41

Hi

Do you have this child?

Margaret Kennery
Birth Date: 29 Nov 1847
Baptism Date: 5 Dec 1847
Parish: St Patrick
Father's Name: John Kennery
Mother's name: Rose Cunningham

Post by **simone** » 24 Dec 2011 15:48

also a previous Margaret

Margaret Kennedy
Birth Date: 8 May 1845
Baptism Date: 8 Jun 1845
Parish: St Patrick
Father's Name: John Kennedy
Mother's name: Rose Quinn

Post by **simone** » 24 Dec 2011 16:08

also -

Alicia Kennedy
Birth Date: 16 Jun 1858
Baptism Date: 20 Jun 1858
Parish: St Patrick
Father's Name: Joannes Kennedy
Mother's name: Rosanna Quinn

Post by **simone** » 24 Dec 2011 16:29

there is a marriage in 1841

Patrick Cunningham
Marriage Date:28 Jun 1841
Parish: St Nicholas
Spouse's Name: Mory Cain
Father's Name: Francis Cunningham
Spouse Father's Name: Edward Cain

If Rose is a Cunningham, I wonder if this could be a brother

Post by **simone** » 24 Dec 2011 16:39

It looks liketheir daughter, little Alicia, died age 2 at 60 Lwr ?Harrington St, so same address that Rose Quin age 18 is at with Alice age 65 in 1841

so looks like this is your Rose Quin

Alicia Kennedy
Burial Date: 6 May 1860
Parish: St Oswald

Post by **simone** » 24 Dec 2011 17:00

looking for Alice Quinn b c 1776 on the 1851 but can't see her.. she may have died... but did find
HO107; Piece: 2187; Folio: 95; Page: 7
Upper Mann Street
Collins Morris 43
Sarah Morris 42
Joseph Morris 2
Allice Cuningham 77 m-in-law
Daniel Cuningham 44 brother- in law

it does say she was born Liverpool though and 1841 has her born Ireland, but can't see this Alice Cunningham in 1841

so maybe it is her

got to go out now so sorry no time to investigate further... sorry

1841 ref under Alice Quin in case anyone else looking in

HO107; Piece 568; Book: 23;Folio: 13; Page: 19

mind you if Alicia died 1860 at Harrington Street, the this may not be your Alice unless she has moved and rest of family, perhaps John and Rose, have stayed there.

try and get back later

Simone x

Post by **simone** » 24 Dec 2011 19:42

Hi

There is a poss burial at St Patrick's 27 Jan 1835 for a Francis Cunningham age 45. no other details though

There are children on IGI and Anc* baptised to Collins Morrison and Sarah Cunningham:-
Mary Anne 1834
Isabella 1845
William 1846
Joseph 1849

all at St Patrick's

Simone x

Post by **simone** » 24 Dec 2011 19:47

hmmm

there is a marriage at St Nicholas in 1831..
Colin Morrison to Sarah Owens 27 Dec 1831

would love to see that marriage... could it really be Sarah Quinn mistranscribed if it hasn't been so clear to read

Simone x

Post by **simone** » 24 Dec 2011 19:51

it is on Lancs OPC also, as Owens

Marriage: 27 Dec 1831 St Nicholas, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Collin Morrison - Mariner of Liverpool
Sarah Owens - Widow of Liverpool
Married by Licence by: Jno. Robinson Asst. Curate
Register: Marriages 1831, Page 17, Entry 368
Source: LDS Film 1068891

but she is a widow...

here is her first marriage

Marriage: 11 Dec 1825 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Thomas Owen - Mariner of this Parish
Sarah Cunningham - (X), Spinster of this Parish
Witness: John Aird; Cornelius Cassidy, (X)
Married by Licence by: John Pulford, B. D. Curate
Register: Marriages 1825 - 1827, Page 71, Entry 212
Source: LDS Film 93918

still doesn't help us work out of Alice with her in 1851 is our Alice Quin...

looking doubtful though

sorry not getting too far.. but it definitely looks, from the burial of Alicia, that Alice and Rose in 1841 are right

Simone x

Post by **MaryA** » 24 Dec 2011 21:34

Simone's on a roll, giving christmas gifts!

Post by **dickiesam** » 24 Dec 2011 22:05

MaryA wrote:Simone's on a roll, giving christmas gifts!

Indeed she is! And I thought I was a dog-with-a-bone type. Simone's going for the whole skellington. Great sleuthing!

DS

Post by **simone** » 24 Dec 2011 22:40

Wish I could find something more definite to connect Francis Cunningham. Thought that he may be step dad, Alice having married him after 1841

but can't see anything

Rolling into bed now

Merry Christmas everyone

Simone x