Lost brothers and sisters

[perry]

Hi

I wonder if anyone can help find some missing siblings?
Mary Ellen Damer b.7.02.1875 Rochdale m. Thomas Ryan b.abt 1876 in Liverpool. From marriage cert. m.14 Feb 1899.

I have picked up two children so far on records Thomas J Ryan b. Dec 1911
and Christina b. 1914 both in Liverpool.

However my Grandmother Norah Ryan was born 1908 in Ireland. and she had Pierce, May, John and Frank/Francis as older siblings I'm told!?

I have been unable to find any census records confirming household. Nor records for brothers/sisters. I think in part hampered by commoness of Ryan surname.

I have birth cert for Mary Ellen and probable census record 1881 Heap Lancashire for her.

Any ideas where to go from here as I seem to have hit a wall?

Regards

Perry

[dickiesam]

Hi Perry,
Re Mary Damer's birth. Have you got the wrong year? 1875 instead of 1876?
Birth: DAMER, Mary Ellen
Registration District: Rochdale, Lancashire
Year/qtr of registration: 1876 / Jan-Feb-Mar
Volume No: 8E; Page No: 67

Do you have your g.mother's birth certificate? There were 3 births for a Norah Ryan in 1908 in Ireland; Borrisokane [Co Tipperary]; Tuam [Co Galway] and Nenagh [Co Tipperary]. Which birth is your Nan's?

From the marriage cert for Mary Ellen Damer and Thomas Ryan, what were their occupations and the names and occupations of their respective fathers?

Back to Norah's birthplace, if it is Nenagh there is a birth of a Pierce Ryan there that might be connected.
Birth: Pierce Ryan
Registration district: Nenagh
Registration quarter and year: Jul - Sep 1901
volume number: 3; Page number: 401.

And finally, have you located Mary Damer in 1881 and 1891?

DS

[perry]

Hi Dickiesam

1/I've checked birth certificate for Mary Ellen Damer Cert. dated 1876 but date on inscription 7 Feb 1875. BMD says 8e pg 67 1876 so yes your right-how strange they wrote the date wrong on actual certificate!

2/I dont have Nora(h) Ryans cert to view but will revert later today when I can get info. on POB

3/Mary Ellen Damer - no profession
Thomas Ryan - shoe maker

4/Mary Ellens father a shoe maker also John Damer b.1845
Thomas Ryan father Thomas Ryan- deceased at time of marriage-Labourer
Believe Mary Ellen had brother also called Pierce and sister Margret? Hence Ryan connection.

5/Mary Ellen Damer in 1881 Bury /Heywood piece 3856,folio 19 pg32

[perry]

Hi Dickiesam,

Will try and attach PDF of original birth cert for Norah from Dublin.

But details:
Name Norah Ryan

Date 3 June 1907

N City 2

County Dublin

Enrty no. 441

norabirth.pdf


Regards

Perry

[MaryA]

I'm not sure that a .pdf file will show through, but prove me wrong by following these instructions
http://liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB ... php?t=9817

Have you also checked the censuses for Ireland? http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/

[dickiesam]

Hi Dickiesam,
Will try and attach PDF of original birth cert for Norah from Dublin.
But details:
Name Norah Ryan
Date 3 June 1907
N City 2
County Dublin
Enrty no. 441
norabirth.pdf

Regards
Perry

Hi Perry,
Best thing to do would be to scan Norah's birth cert and post the scan by following MaryA's instructive link via Photobucket.

Irish GRO have 2 Dublin North births for 1907:
Norah Ryan
Registration district: Dublin North
Registration quarter and year: Jul - Sep 1907
volume number: 2; page number: 419.

and
Norah Ryan
Registration district: Dublin North
Registration quarter and year: Apr - Jun 1907
volume number: 2; page number: 543

Oddly, I can't find a candidate for the birth for older siblings Pierce, May or John between 1899 and 1907. There is a Francis Cyril in 1903 but in Dublin South.
Francis Cyril Ryan
Registration district: Dublin South
Registration quarter and year: Oct - Dec 1903
volume number: 2; page number: 561

DS

[dickiesam]

I have picked up two children so far on records Thomas J Ryan b. Dec 1911
and Christina b. 1914 both in Liverpool.

I assume you have found these two births using birth name and maiden name of mother? Have you confirmed the parents as Mary Ellen and Thomas Ryan from the birth certs?

DS

[dickiesam]

Hi Perry,
I think I may have found the family a decade plus a year or two after the parents married. I have sent you a PM.

I think this could be Thomas in 1901. Haven't found Mary Ellen yet.
RYAN, Thomas - Boarder - Married - 26 - 1875 - Shoemaker - Ireland.
Address: 13 Abbott Street, Manchester, Lancashire.
RG13 / Piece: 3750 / Folio:141 / Page:35

DS

[dickiesam]

Given the clues that Thomas in the course of his trade as a shoe or boot maker been probably been a journeyman, assuming the sighting in Manchester in 1901 was him; and some children were apparently born outside England and there was no sign of the family in Ireland in 1901 and 1911; I looked at Scotland.

And BINGO! Fortunately I had some 'spare' credits to invest...
The child Francis was actually Patrick Francis Ryan.
Born 9th February 1904 at 83 Edington Street, Glasgow. [at 2 hrs & 40 mins AM! Don't you just love the Scots birth registers?]. Parents: Thomas Ryan, journeyman bootmaker, and Mary Ellen Ryan nee Damer, married February 14th 1899 in Liverpool, England.

Thus encouraged I continued the chase...
Fairly sure another child was born in Paisley...
1902 - RYAN - JOHN LEO - PAISLEY/RENFREW 573/01 2191
And here's Pierce..
1905 - RYAN, PIERCE - GREENOCK WEST/RENFREW 564/02 0760

Couldn't find any more likely births so that's when they went to Ireland to have Norah I expect. As they are not in Ireland in 1911, they were probably back in England because there is a Norah, right age, bn Ireland, in Manchester in 19**. They got about a bit didn't they?

DS

[dickiesam]

RE:

1/I've checked birth certificate for Mary Ellen Damer Cert. dated 1876 but date on inscription 7 Feb 1875. BMD says 8e pg 67 1876 so yes your right-how strange they wrote the date wrong on actual certificate!

I think it is explained when you know the GRO Index is a record of when the birth was registered with the authorities. Registration was supposed to be within 6 weeks of the birth, but there are many cases of late registrations. It also rise to a birth being apparently [according to the Index] in say the March qtr of a year when in fact the birth was in the previous year.

I am now quite sure that Thomas and Mary had children in Scotland...
John Leo bn 1902; Patrick Francis bn 1904; Pierce bn 1905; and Norah abt 1908 in Ireland. I wondered if there were children bn between the marriage in February 1899 and the first Scots birth in 1902. With Thomas probably being the right one I found in Manchester, and Mary could not be far away, there's a Manchester birth in 1901 that might be their's.
Births Dec 1901: RYAN Mary - Manchester - 8d - 254.

Between you, me and youse-all, there's a Mary that would fit in 19-thingy.

Hopefully, Perry will have a look in 1911 and confirm the findings so far. Even if the parents could not remember who was born when!

DS

[perry]

Hi Dickiesam
Brilliant. I'll followup and reference. Did you come across a "May" or Margaret?

I couldnt have one what you have done.Thanks

I feel bad about the credits...can I gift you them?

Kind regards

Perry

[MaryA]

Well done DS! sleuth extra-ordinaire!

Perry I'm sure Dickiesam wouldn't have used his credits if he had needed them, but maybe some day in the future you would be able to pass on the favour either back to him or on to somebody else.

If you need some credits to follow up anything more, a good method is to sign up for the Ancestral Scotland newsletter and you get some free.

PS "May" could be a pet name for Mary.

[dickiesam]

Well done DS! sleuth extra-ordinaire!

Oh gosh...

Hi Perry,
Pleased to have been of help and as for those Scots People credits.. well this is a community where we help each other so I am really only repaying someone else's favour to me.

With regard to May and Margaret, as MaryA says it is possible May is the familial for Mary; and because the 1911 census is the first one to ask how many children were born into a marriage and how many survived you might find that Thomas and Mary had other children who did not survive. Well worth a look!

Don't forget to post that birth cert for Norah. We need to nail that birth down as to a district and perhaps find children who did not survive. Although Scotland would be the first place to look because access to the birth record is so easy. You need to go up there anyway to get the birth details for the 3 children we now know about. Their actual YoBs do not match what the parents wrote later on! The correct YoBs are important for locating marriages and particularly deaths later.

DS

EDIT TO ADD....
PS: It's my dog with a bone time... Curious. How did the Norah Ryan line reach NZ?

[perry]

Hi Dickiesam and MaryA

Thanks for your help. follow link which I've tested to see birth cert. Very little information on it so there must be a fuller version available through the records office.

http://s1102.photobucket.com/albums/g456/perrycornish1/

Thanks again

Perry

[dickiesam]

Hi Dickiesam and MaryA

Thanks for your help. follow link which I've tested to see birth cert. Very little information on it so there must be a fuller version available through the records office.

http://s1102.photobucket.com/albums/g456/perrycornish1/

Thanks again

Perry

Hi Perry,
The birth certificate you have is the 'short-form' cert, usually used to establish who you are and cheaper than the full cert. It was issued in 1964, and was probably needed for identity purposes. I doubt it was for a passport, because the Passport Office insist on the full certified version. The full cert, with parents' names, addresses, father's occupation, etc, can be purchased from the Irish GRO online here: http://www.groireland.ie/

However, for genealogy purposes you can order a photocopy of the birth entry in the register for 6 Euro incl postage, almost half the price of the full 'fancy' cert. The photocopy has exactly the same information but has no legal standing.

This is the GRO information you need:
Birth name: Norah Ryan
Registration district: Dublin North
Registration quarter and year: Apr - Jun 1907
Volume number: 2; Page number: 543.

DS