Marriage at St Matthew. Liverpool in 1862

Post by **Thorpe** » 29 Oct 2011 16:13

On the 1841 census, the Holland family seem to be at HO107/120/12/9/13. Eliza is there aged 6 but she has an older sister called Elizabeth, aged 8, who looks more likely to be the one with uncle Robert in 1851 (if it is, indeed, the same family).

Thorpe

Post by **simone** » 29 Oct 2011 17:10

Nice one re Mary Large

shame there are no more clues for Joseph

there is a Joseph lodging in Everton 1861 but he is a Blacksmith not a whitesmith

RG9; Piece: 2709; Folio: 68; Page: 33

wonder who the other witness is

Simone x

Post by **simone** » 29 Oct 2011 17:24

1841 census at Bedford in civil parish of Leigh

HO107; Piece 513; Book: 6 Folio: 7; Page: 7
Ellen Bater 75
Joseph Bater 2
I reckon Ellen's age may be 15 on image

and name could be Bates/Bate

if this is right there is a possible marriage in 1848 at St Luke's Lowton, registered Leigh, for Ellen Bate to John Simm.

They are on census, but sorry got to go out now.. no more time to look

Simone x

Post by **MaryA** » 29 Oct 2011 17:54

Done good Simone.

Bearing in mind that Ellen's age would have been rounded down to 15 in the 1841 census

HO107; Piece: 2204; Folio: 28; Page: 23
1851 Stirrup fd Brow, Golborne, Lancashire
John Simm Head M 27 Factory Hand Ashton
Ellen Wife M 29 Golborne

also Delph House, Winwick with Hulme, Lancashire
James Hatton is a farmer, with his wife and children and Farm Servants including
Joseph Bate 13 born Golborne.
Theere is also a Peter Bate age 20, born Croft but may be coincidence, or may be a cousin or some such who helped the young lad get a position.

Post by **Hilary** » 29 Oct 2011 19:29

Could this be a possibility?

Baptisms: 29 Mar 1835 St Luke, Lowton, Lancashire, England
Joseph Bate - Child of Elizabeth Bate
Born: 17 Dec 1834
Abode: Lowton
Occupation: Weaver
Notes: [No year of birth given, so assumed to be within one year before baptism.]
Baptised by: Jn. Pennington, Curate

There's no Joseph Bate baptised at Leigh church around the right time. This seems the nearest and he's illegitimate.

Post by **Hilary** » 29 Oct 2011 19:42

In 1841 there's an 11 year old Joseph Bate a servant silk weaver in Pennington born West Leigh. He is a servant to Thomas Bradman a silk weaver.

Post by **simone** » 29 Oct 2011 19:53

Thanks Mary

that baptism looks good Hilary

although age a bit out

re Peter, Lancs OPC has a possible.. could Betty be Elizabeth

Baptism: 15 Mar 1833 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England
Peter Bate - Son of Betty Bate
Abode: Croft
Notes: Illegitimate
Baptised by: J. Topping Vicar
Register: Baptisms 1829 - 1834, Page 217, Entry 1729
Source: LDS Film 1885649

Post by **Hilary** » 29 Oct 2011 20:09

I've had a look at Simone's find and it really doesn't look like a 7 as in 75 but looks more like a 1. Another site gives her as 1. The name looks a bit like Batie but could just as easily be Bates!

I think this is more likely than the one I found. They are at Brick yard Bedford. At the same address is John and Margaret Pitt both 40 and Margaret Pitt aged 5. Ellen is a silk weaver

So we're looking for Joseph's christening with a mother Ellen.

I think Joseph could be the one in Pennington in 1851 as West Leigh given as the birth place is very near Bedford.

This looks like Ellen's marriage

Marriage: 10 Jun 1844 St Thomas, Leigh, Lancashire, England
Henry Daniels - (X), Full Age Weaver Bachelor of Bedford
Ellen Bait - (X), Full Age Weaver Spinster of Bedford
Groom's Father: James Daniels, Sawyer
Bride's Father: Guy Bait, Weaver
Witness: William Wilkinson; Samuel Hampson
Married by Banns by: Moorhouse James
and her baptism

Baptisms: 15 Sep 1816 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England
Ellen Bate - Daughter of Guy Bate & Hannah
Abode: Penington
Occupation: Weaver
Baptised by: D. Birkett

Post by **simone** » 29 Oct 2011 20:17

Hi Hilary

I've just been looking at Guy Bate coincidentally

but was thinking that Ellen would be too old

too many bates hanging around on my screen at the moment.. will have to get organised

Post by **simone** » 29 Oct 2011 20:23

There is Ellen Bate, daughter of Guy Bate and Hannah baptised 19 March 1821 at St Mary the Virgin, Leigh.. on the IGI, so the 1816 Ellen probably died

Post by **simone** » 29 Oct 2011 20:29

Going back to Betty Bate mother of Peter...
Lancs Opc
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html

haspossible baptism of Betty to Guy and Hannah in 1811..
also further children
Matthew 1814
Ellen 1816
Martha 1818
Ellen 1821
Dinah 1826

Simone x

Post by **simone** » 29 Oct 2011 20:40

Lancs OPC

Burial: 15 Oct 1828 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England
Hannah Bate -
Age: 41
Abode: Westleigh
Cause of Death: Consump.
Notes: Wife
Buried by: J. Topping Vicar
Register: Burials 1823 - 1830, Page 228, Entry 1817
Source: LDS Film 1885654

2ND MARRIAGE

Marriage: 1 Jan 1833 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Guy Bate - (X), of Wigan Parish
Margaret Green - (X), of Wigan Parish
Witness: Saml. Vizard; Wm. Potter
Married by Banns by: J. K. Glazebrook, Curate
Register: Marriages 1833 - 1835, Page 1, Entry 3
Source: LDS Film 1885692

Post by **simone** » 29 Oct 2011 20:46

still need to tie up Joseph to this for definite

but looks most promising with what Hilary found

Post by **simone** » 29 Oct 2011 20:53

Likely birth reg for Joseph

Joseph Bate
Apr-May-Jun 1839
Leigh
Greater Manchester, Lancashire
Volume: 21
Page: 554

think it may be best way forward

will at least confirm mum.

Post by **Hilary** » 29 Oct 2011 22:09

First Ellen's burial

Burial: 4 Apr 1817 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England
Ellen Bate -
Age: Infant
Abode: Penington
Buried by: D. Birkett
2nd Ellen's baptism

Baptisms: 17 Mar 1821 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England
Ellen Bate - Daughter of Guy Bate & Hannah
Abode: Penington
Occupation: Weaver
Baptised by: D. Birkett

Post by **Thorpe** » 29 Oct 2011 23:28

That really is excellent additional information.

The first child of Joseph Bates and Eliza Holland was called Joseph GUY Bates, which seems to add to the likelihood that Ellen (with father Guy) was Joseph's mother and that she subsequently married Henry Daniels.

I think Ellen Daniels died in 1845, aged 24 and that Henry Daniels married again, in 1850, to a Mary Baxter. They appear on the 1851 census living with Henry's father, James, a retired Sawyer.

I am very pleased with all of the help that you have given and I hope that you have all enjoyed looking for the (possible) answers for me.

The last child of Joseph Bates and Eliza Holland was called Henry Wallace Bates. If anyone would like to offer any suggestions as to where the Wallace came from .... or perhaps that is pushing it a bit.

Thank you all again. You have been brilliant.

Thorpe

Post by **simone** » 30 Oct 2011 07:57

love it when a plan comes together

dogs with rags sometimes the crew on here Thorpe

just putting this as a possible from IGI

Thomas Holland
birth: 24 Dec 1814
christening: 22 Jan 1815
INDEPENDENT OR CONGREGATIONAL,NORTHWICH,CHESHIRE,ENGLAND
residence: 1814 Cheshire, England
parents - William Holland, Mary

Simone x