Marriage at St Matthew. Liverpool in 1862

Post by **Thorpe** » 28 Oct 2011 19:19

On 1st February 1862, a marriage took place at St Matthew, Liverpool between Joseph Bates and Eliza Holland. The marriage is referred to on the Family Search site and it says that her father was called Thomas Holland. It does not give a father's name for Joseph.

They are obvious on the subsequent censuses but not so on the earlier ones. He was born at Bedford Leigh, Lancashire about 1839 and she was born at Northwich, Cheshire about 1835. There are a few ladies called Eliza Holland from Cheshire on the censuses but none of them seems to have had a father called Thomas.

I wonder if anyone has access to the St Matthew register and could perhaps, please, provide any more details from the marriage entry?

Also if anyone can (conclusively) spot either Joseph or Eliza on the censuses before they married it would be very helpful.

Many thanks

Thorpe

Post by **Blue70** » 28 Oct 2011 21:00

Hi Thorpe

Welcome to the forum. St Matthew doesn't appear to be available online unfortunately.

Blue

Post by **MaryA** » 28 Oct 2011 22:54

Hi and welcome to the forum.

It seems that you will need to visit the Liverpool Record Office to view the actual entry in the register (or microfilm anyway), but I would suspect that if Eliza's father is named then there may well be a blank for Joseph's, be prepared that he may have been illegitimate.

Please give details from the next couple of censuses that you have, especially the references, so that we can identify them to help with our searches for them earlier.

Post by **simone** » 28 Oct 2011 23:03

Hi and welcome

for the crew

1871 Salford
RG10; Piece: 4017; Folio: 101; Page: 13
Joseph Baltes 31 Whitesmith
Eliza Baltes 32
Joseph Guy Baltes 8
Thomas Bates 6
Eliza Bates 4
Ellen Bates 1
William Smith 20 whitesmith, lodger

1881 census Salford
RG11; Piece: 3959; Folio: 12; Page: 17
Joseph Bates 42 Traveller, b Bedford Leigh
Eliza Bates 45 b Northwich
Thomas Bates 17 b Liverpool blacksmith
Eliza Bates 14 b Liverpool
Charles Bates 9 b salford
Mary E. Bates 6 b salford
Henry W. Bates 4 b salford
William Bricles 50 boarder
John Morris 40 boarder

Post by **Tina** » 29 Oct 2011 09:12

Hello Thorpe and a warm welcome.

Good finds Simmo

1861 Eliza Holland 30 bn Northwich house servant
to a Clergyman's wife
44 Gt Mersey St, Everton, Kirkdale district
RG9/2720/84/28
(her age fluctuates!!)

Tina

Post by **Tina** » 29 Oct 2011 09:18

Hi Peeps

Have a squizz in 1851, damaged entry.
There's an Eliza 17 bn Northwich, with her widowed mother Mary, sister Henrietta both bn Ches, in Manchester with little brother Thomas 8yrs.
Something or nothing?? (Nothing)
HO107/2227/669/43

Tina

DRATS...I've found Henrietta and Eliza in 1891 with bro Thomas all unmarried..

Post by **simone** » 29 Oct 2011 09:43

Hi Tina

Yes I wondered about the Henrietta one, but looks like they are in Hulme by 1861, Eliza still there

RG9; Piece: 2888; Folio: 68; Page: 24
Mary Holland 50 b Smallwood, Cheshire
Henrietta Holland 28 cotton weaver b Northwich
Eliza Holland 26 silk weaver b Northwich
Thomas Holland 18 b Salford
Mary Knote 6 b Hulme, boarder
Levi Shaw 18 lodger b Manchester..

also 1881 Eliza still there
RG11; Piece: 3914; Folio: 52; Page: 12
Thomas Holland 37
Harriett Holland 8
Eliza Holland 39 sister b Northwich
William Holland 13
Henrietta Holland 43 sister b Northwich

so can't be right

Cheshire Parish register project http://www.csc.liv.ac.uk/~cprdb/ has an Elizabeth Holland, but baptised at Macclesfield 12/07/1835, residence Bollington

8350712
SURNAME HOLLAND
FORENAME ELIZABETH
FATHER THOMAS
MOTHER SARAH
OCCUPATION COTTON SPIN
RESIDENCE BOLL

Post by **simone** » 29 Oct 2011 09:46

curious about this one
1851
HO107; Piece: 2192; Folio: 1205; Page: 54
Salt Works, Garston
Robert Holland 45 Manager Salt works, born Northwich
Elizabeth Holland 17 niece b Northwich
Mary Drinkwater 49 housekeeper

1841 at Salt works, Garston Village, Wavertree
HO107; Piece 511; Book: 5Folio: 17; Page: 27
Robert Holland 35 mgr Salt works
Sarah Holland 20
Elizabeth Clarke 30
Martha Clarke 5
Sarah Smith 30

1861
RG9; Piece: 2738; Folio: 156; Page: 20
Robert Halland 55 B Whitton, Cheshire
Mary Denkinster 44
corrections sent to Anc for names

maybe marriage cer best bet to see witnesses etc

Post by **Tina** » 29 Oct 2011 09:52

Hi Simmo

I like your 1851 find, well done.
Yep Henrietta & Co, probably related somewhere along the line.
Tina

Post by **Thorpe** » 29 Oct 2011 10:36

Thank you all so much for your suggestions. You seem to have arrived at the same conclusion as I did - that a sight of the marriage entry might help.

Unfortunately, I cannot visit Liverpool Records Office myself to check the parish register and I asked the question originally in the hope that someone in the Liverpool area might have access to the St Matthew register and be able to provide the details from the 1862 marriage entry.

Thorpe

Post by **simone** » 29 Oct 2011 10:39

Is St Matthew RC?

anyone know where it is?

Post by **daggers** » 29 Oct 2011 10:57

St Matthew, Scotland Road: CofE - There is a reference to this church in the LplRO catalogue but I did not spot anything about parish registers.
St Matthew, Hill St, Toxteth park: CofE - Record Office refs: 283MTT.
St Matthew, Clubmoor: RC. - 282MTC but starting in 1922.

D

Post by **simone** » 29 Oct 2011 11:13

Thanks Daggers.. wonder which one then... familysearch doesn't give any clues, no source call no to view details

just found Scotland Road on was consecrated 1848..

can't promise at this stage but may be able to call into library later for a quick look

Post by **MaryA** » 29 Oct 2011 12:05

If nobody is able to assist when visiting the LRO, you can order online at www.gro.gov.uk - costs £9.25 using the following reference
Joseph Bates to Eliza Holland Q1 1862 Liverpool 8b 89

Post by **simone** » 29 Oct 2011 14:32

Hi

The church was St Matthew, Scotland Road

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh59 ... 141829.jpg

writing a bit difficult

I think Thomas is a Timber Porter? can't read last word.
Eliza living at Whatham Street?
Joseph at Hopwood Street.

Simone x

Post by **simone** » 29 Oct 2011 14:47

ooh look

1861 census
38 Court Upper Mann Street No 5
RG9; Piece: 2705; Folio: 59; Page: 50
Thomas Holland 46 Timber Porter for Railway born Northwich
Mary Holland 50 b Davenham
Mary Holland 16 daughter b Northwich
William Holland 5 grandson b Bootle

1851 Kirkdale
HO107; Piece: 2190; Folio: 403; Page: 52
Thomas H Holland 35 dock labourer b Northwich
Mary Holland 39 b Davenham
Sarah Holland 9 B Whitton
Mary Holland 5 b Whitton

Simone x

Post by **simone** » 29 Oct 2011 14:55

simone wrote:curious about this one
1851
HO107; Piece: 2192; Folio: 1205; Page: 54
Salt Works, Garston
Robert Holland 45 Manager Salt works, born Northwich
Elizabeth Holland 17 niece b Northwich
Mary Drinkwater 49 housekeeper

1841 at Salt works, Garston Village, Wavertree
HO107; Piece 511; Book: 5Folio: 17; Page: 27
Robert Holland 35 mgr Salt works
Sarah Holland 20
Elizabeth Clarke 30
Martha Clarke 5
Sarah Smith 30

1861
RG9; Piece: 2738; Folio: 156; Page: 20
Robert Halland 55 B Whitton, Cheshire
Mary Denkinster 44
corrections sent to Anc for names

so I wonder about this one again, with the Whitton connection

Post by **MaryA** » 29 Oct 2011 15:06

Great work Simone, good find too.

Although John & Jane Bell seem to take in boarders, Joseph Bates isn't with them at 77 Hopwood Street in the 1861 census. What a pity.
RG09 piece 2654 folio 128 page 27

Post by **MaryA** » 29 Oct 2011 15:08

I think that Eliza with uncle Robert seenms quite feasible.

Post by **Thorpe** » 29 Oct 2011 15:51

Thank you all again for your further help and especially to simone for going out of her way to look up the marriage entry. It is very much appreciated.

The 1861 census entry for Eliza Holland at RG9/2720/84/28 now looks even better, when her fellow servant was called Mary Large (as was her wedding witness).

The 1861 entry for Thomas Holland also looks very promising and I will look into that further.

Many thanks

Thorpe