Puzzle.

Post by **PJLong** » 23 Sep 2011 09:10

Morning all. I have a "puzzle" that I know full well one or more of the forum stars can resolve!
Violet Bell Helena Ody was born April 25th 1907 in Fulham. Got the cert and Father is Frederick George Ody. Mother Elizabeth formerly Bell. Only one possible marriage - Dec 13th 1907! The 1901 census has Frederick and Elizabeth "Ody" with Walter, son 2 and Elsie, daughter 1 living in West Ham. The census we can't mention has Frederick with Walter 12 and Elsie 11. Another daughter, Olive aged 7, is with Elizabeth's married sister (Minnie Goss) Can I find Elizabeth and Violet? Can I squat! I've hunted using both surnames too - just in case. I've looked at every single Violet born in the area (Fulham) in 1907. Elizabeth was born abt 1834 in South Benfleet, Essex. Can anyone help please? Grateful for anything I've missed or not considered.
Pauline.

Post by **MaryA** » 23 Sep 2011 09:59

Just an amendment to what you gave above - Elizabeth's birth would be approximately 1872?

Post by **MaryA** » 23 Sep 2011 10:28

Just a thought -

Elizabeth, born Benfleet aprox 1872 who is presumably the mother of Walter and Elsie.

Are we certain that she is the same Elizabeth (maiden name Bell) who married Frederick in 1907 or could this be a different Elizabeth?

Thinking there might be two mothers involved here, both with the same name, however we don't know for certain Violet's mother's birthplace.

Does that make sense?

Post by **Hilary** » 23 Sep 2011 10:40

As you've looked up the 1911 census there's nothing against you quoting it in full. It's doing look ups that are not permitted. So please can you post the 1911 census details in full.

Also on his marriage certificate to Elizabeth is he a bachelor or widower?

Frederick's army papers are on Ancetsry and there he says he was married to Elizabeth Bell on 13 dcemeber 1911. He lists 3 children Elsie Veronica born 8 Jan 1900, Olive Elizabeth born 12 September 1903 and Violet Bell Helena 25 April 1907.

His address is given as 90a Oaklands Grove Shepherds Bush

I'm also wondering about a second marriage which is why I ask about his status at marriage to Elizabeth.

Post by **MaryA** » 23 Sep 2011 10:43

Looking around for Elizabeth Bell, father Peter? (from Minnie's marriage certificate) she seems to give her dob as 1866 in 1891, maybe she fibbed to get work.

But I can't connect them prior to that to Benfleet, unless you have them on the 1881 census?

Post by **PJLong** » 23 Sep 2011 10:47

Yes Mary.....senile moment on Elizabeth's approx birth - convinced I have her 1871 South Benfleet. Another "coincidence" is that Frederick's brother, Albert, is also married to an Elizabeth - born approx 1872. Got them on the shush census. Can I smell a hummungus rat here? Got Elizabeth aged 4 months with parents in South Benfleet. Her father dies and mum remarries a William Goodeve in 1880. The following census has "Lizzie" and her sister, Minnie with them in Rochford, Essex. All through census returns the birthplace is Benfleet. The real puzzle for me Mary......is the non appearance of Violet Bell Helena Ody on the 1911!

Post by **Hilary** » 23 Sep 2011 10:47

In 1881 Frederick G Ody appears to be with his parents in Marylebone. Father Stephen a fruiterer.

I think this is possibly Frederick's first marriage

25 May 1890 to Minnie Stone his father Stephen a greengrocer

It's on Ancestry but I didn't write all the details down.

Post by **PJLong** » 23 Sep 2011 10:50

1891 found Elizabeth working as a domestic servant for John Price in Paddington. she's aged 20 - which fits! same birthplace.....South Benfleet, Essex.

Post by **Hilary** » 23 Sep 2011 10:53

Minnie Ody (as Ady) is with her parents George and Caroline in 1891. Listed as married.

Please can you list the 1911 in full and the marriage to Elizabeth.

Thank you

Post by **PJLong** » 23 Sep 2011 10:54

Aha......so the first 3 children weren't Elizabeth's? Need to find a poss death for Minnie before ........ 1901 (as Elizabeth is with him then as his "wife"!) Still doesn't tell us where Violet is in 1911!!!

Post by **Hilary** » 23 Sep 2011 10:59

We can't say definitely that the children weren't Elizabeth's without their birth certificates.

You also need to tell us what it says on the marriage certificate to Elizabeth ie was his father called Stephen?

Also does the address on his Army papers tie in with the address in 1911 if not it might be worth checking that address as well.

Please post marriage and 1911 details in full.

Post by **PJLong** » 23 Sep 2011 11:01

Here's the hush!

Frederick Ody, head, 37 Fishmonger.
Walter' son 12
Elsie daur 11
William Smith boarder 30 dining car attendant

then:

Arthur Goss 38
Minnie Goss 37 born Benfleet, Essex.
Maud Goss daur 14
Olive Ody niece 7 born Forest Gate

Marriage to Elizabeth is Dec 13th 1911 - found from Frederick's army records on Anc!

Post by **PJLong** » 23 Sep 2011 11:03

Sorry....address on 1911 census and army papers not the same - though both are Shepherds Bush.

Post by **MaryA** » 23 Sep 2011 11:04

PJLong wrote:so the first 3 children weren't Elizabeth's?

Yes I think some must be, but I'm also wondering why he didn't list Walter in his army papers. (My head is spinning with the dates). Perhaps Walter wasn't Frederick's son.

Post by **Hilary** » 23 Sep 2011 11:08

It helps if you respond to people's questions the first time they ask so they don't keep asking the same question or waste time researching information that is already known.

I suggest you purchase the actual marriage certificate to find out his status and who his father is.

Post by **PJLong** » 23 Sep 2011 11:11

Cheers Hilary - will do!

Post by **MaryA** » 23 Sep 2011 11:23

Realised why dates don't add up - Hilary you have confirmed that from the Military papers the marriage took place in 1911, yet Pauline stated 1907. Pauline do you have the marriage certificate and can we have the details please, also the 1911 details.

Sorry was called away in the middle of typing this and now I find you've rushed on. The above not needed, but marriage definitely is!

Post by **PJLong** » 23 Sep 2011 11:34

Yes Mary......I'm trying to do too many things at once today! Date of marriage was Dec 13th 1911. I don't have the cert as I only recently forked out for the birth of Violet (amongst others) Saving for my next splurge! Think this one will have to go on the back burner as I'm off to see hubby in Dubai for a month on Tuesday. Hence the flapping trying to do too much in one go!
Violet's daughter was given the middle name of Elsie which makes me think she (Elsie) was thought much of.

Post by **MaryA** » 23 Sep 2011 11:37

PJLong wrote: Need to find a poss death for Minnie before ........ 1901

Possibly a reason why they didn't marry until 1911 is that Minnie hadn't died.

Post by **MaryA** » 23 Sep 2011 11:43

Hope you have a great time, I think your research will be forgotten about for a time while you enjoy the sunshine!