FORTESCUE STREET WEST DERBY

Post by **steveboler** » 02 Sep 2011 07:42

Hi Folks,
Doing some research on my family tree and had family who lived in Fortescue Street in the late 1800's to early 1900's. I know of a marriage in 1913 so must have lived there for some years afterwards and I think they must have lived there in the very late 1800's.

Steve

Post by **dickiesam** » 02 Sep 2011 11:01

Hi Steve,
Do you want the crew here to see what we can turn up for you? Post some names and ages and we'll see what we can find. In 1901 there were 29 'dwellings' in Fortescue Street.

DS

Post by **steveboler** » 02 Sep 2011 12:51

Hi there,
Great, here goes.
1911 CENSUS
LEAH GOLDSTEIN b. 1864 c. in Russia (Widow)
GERTRUDE GOLDSTEIN b. 1883c. London St. Georges East (d.1948 M/cr)
LAZARUS GOLDSTEIN b. 1899c. London Whitechapel (?????)

14 FORTESCUE STREET WEST DERBY.

HYMAN MENDLE married GERTRUDE in 1913 at ISLINGTON SYNAGOGUE
address given 16 FORTESCUE STREET WEST DERBY. Father of Gertrude called DAVID GOLDSTEIN DECEASED (Shoe Maker)
Father of Hyman called JACOB MENDAL DECEASED.(Shoe Maker) Hyman died in 1964 at Manchester. Gertrude died in 1948 at Manchester.
The husband of LEAH was called DAVID GOLDSTEIN (b. in Russia). Have a possible death in 1910 for a D.G. born 1860c. - maybe the husband.

Cannot find any details of Jacob on Ancestry and presume he was born in Russia and died in Russia.
Cannot find Leah and David in the 1901 Census
Cannot find birth certificate for Gertrude
Found birth certificate for Lazarus and must order a copy.
Cannot find when Hyman, Leah, David or Jacob came to the UK from Russia.
Do know from the family that Hyman & Gertrude lived in Cheetham Hill in Pimlott Street and Heywood Street.
Cannot ask the family because they have all gone now.
I presume they came over between two Census and David died in between.
Tried various Jewish sites to no avail.
So trying to find if any families back relations knew of them and could give some info.
O.K. thats it "long-Winded" and complicated.
Be eternally grateful if any of you folks can through some light on this, even a snippet.

Kindest regards

Steve
P.S. I live in Italy and thats a problem for local libraries etc.

Post by **MaryA** » 02 Sep 2011 13:16

What relationship is Lazarus? who are his parents?

In the 1901 census there are five entries that could be yours, be careful about ordering a birth certificate, make sure you specify a parent's name to get the right one.

Post by **MaryA** » 02 Sep 2011 13:30

I found a possibly for Hyman in 1901

57 Lord Street, Cheetham, North Manchester
Hyman Mendel Boarder S 22 Russia (Russian Subject)
living with Simon Lewis (house painter) and wife Rachel and daughters Annie 4 and Dora 8 months and mother in law Rebecca Lewis. The children born in Manchester, the others Russian.
RG13; Piece: 3770; Folio: 55; Page: 22.

If this is your man then my suspicions would be that he was in England alone, either because his parents were deceased or hadn't come to England with him.

Post by **steveboler** » 02 Sep 2011 14:21

Hi Mary A,
1901 Census you found something I did not - so I will look again.

Lazarus was the son of David and Leah Goldstein - will re-check my info in the light of what you said.
All that info has just taken a brick out of the wall and maybe be able to make some headway.

Thank you very much.

Regards

Steve xxx

Post by **MaryA** » 02 Sep 2011 14:57

If you use the National Archives 1901 census site http://www.1901censusonline.com it gives you occupations. There is a 17 year old David Goldstein in the list, born Poland Foreign Subject, living Whitechapel, who is a Bootmaker.

Using the resources I have I cannot find him so he is either missed off that database or quite differently transcribed.

I would be interested to know if his age has been transcribed correctly, and who he is with.

Post by **dickiesam** » 02 Sep 2011 15:21

Hi,
Here's a possible marriage for Leah and David. It's the only one between 1875 and 1899.

Name: GOLDSTEIN, Davis [sic!]
Registration District: Whitechapel; County: London
Year/qtr of Registration: 1897 / Apr-May-Jun
Spouse's name: ABRAHAMOVITCH, Leah.
Volume No: 1C; Page No: 559.

There's another possible in 1900 Dec qtr to a RITCHKIN, Leah. This one in Prestwich, Lancs. I know they are both a long time after the children were born but it's happened before. Or they were married before they arrived in England.

Oddly, in 19** Leah had written and crossed out 20 under 'Years married'. So there should be a marriage abt 1891.

She is at #16 Fortestcue St by the way, not 14[which isn't listed].

Found these Lazarus Goldstein births in the London area. The last one looks very interesting. Worth a cert?
GOLDSTEIN, Lazarus - London, Mile End Old Town - 1896
GOLDSTEIN, Lazarus - London, Mile End Old Town - 1897
GOLDSTEIN, Lazarus - London, Mile End Old Town - 1898
GOLDSTEIN, Lazarus - London, Whitechapel - 1898.
GOLDSTEIN, Lazarus - London, St. George in The East - 1898.
GOLDSTEIN, Lazarus - London, Mile End Old Town - 1899.
GOLDSTEIN, Lazarus - London, Whitechapel - 1899

DS

Post by **dickiesam** » 02 Sep 2011 15:28

Just a thought..
Had Leah been married twice? The second time to David Goldstein? That would mean Gertrude's birth was registered under another name.

DS

Post by **MaryA** » 02 Sep 2011 16:01

dickiesam wrote:Just a thought..
Had Leah been married twice? The second time to David Goldstein? That would mean Gertrude's birth was registered under another name.

Certainly checking the 1891 and 1901 census I wouldn't be surprised.

Post by **Hilary** » 02 Sep 2011 16:05

This all seems familiar - I've seen it somewhere else but I can't remember where. Have you posted some of it on another forum at some time?

Post by **steveboler** » 02 Sep 2011 18:01

Hi, Mary A & Dickiesam & Hilary (Ed. Off),
What a brainy lot you are. In half a day you have achieved so much. Think you are more expert than.
Mary: Possible, would make David 15 years old when Gertrude was born (1895), unless there is a different father somewhere. Will work on that angle as well.
Dickiesam: Thats an interesting one I can research. Sorry my error number 14 is the address where Hyman & Gertrude lived as it states on the marriage certificate. The last Lazarus is the one I found and would appear to be him. Have details of the Vol. and Page so will get hold of that and it should give details of parents.
Interesting that Leah could have been married twice - never thought of that and that would explain I cannot find the birth certificate for G.G. Will check out the 1891/1901 Census.
HILARY: Yes, honey, you have seen something similar. I have trawled that many sites and forums at different stages and found some information from them and then hit a brick wall.
So I am eternally grateful to you all and you have put me on another road.

Kindest regards to you all.

Steve xxxxxxxx

Post by **dickiesam** » 02 Sep 2011 18:02

Hi Steve,
Can you confirm that your connection to this Goldstein family is through the Mendle family, via Gertrude who married Hyman Mendle?

When Gertrude named David Goldstein as her father perhaps it was because he was the only 'father' she knew. What puzzles me now is, having scoured a number of censuses, and the Goldsteins being predominately in the London area, with one or two exceptions, what was Leah doing up in Liverpool in 1911, a widow and 'traveler' by occupation?

DS

Post by **steveboler** » 02 Sep 2011 18:20

Hi there,
The connection I made is:
Found the death certificate of Gertrude (aka. Gertie) for 1948 Manchester and I know that is correct for fact. The date of birth is 1895c. The 1911 Census gives here birthdate so I think that is right. The mother is Leah Goldstein (widow) and brother Lazuarus (1899) The marriage certificate of Hyman and Gertrude states father David Goldstein and Jacob Mendal (both shoemakers). Thats my connection if I am right.
The puzzle LEAH's* children were born in London and she appeared in Liverpool as a Traveller 1911. I thought that was strange, but cannot answer that one.
Probally repeated something I said in the previous reply.
You know it seems that complicated, but I will not let go and will search different areas and try and find connections. I have lost count of how many research sites I have used. Something somewhere will crop up. They came to the UK somehow: boat or train, but when and how?
Look at incoming passenger lists- all about Australia and USA. Nothing on Hamburg.

Kind regards,

Steve xx
*Name amended to save confusion, per the posters comment in the next message. MA

Post by **steveboler** » 02 Sep 2011 18:22

Hi there again,

Made a mistake that should Leahs children and not Gertrudes - getting confused!

Steve

Post by **dickiesam** » 03 Sep 2011 13:20

Hi Steve,
Still puzzled over why we can't find Gertrude's birth.
So, assuming Leah was correct when she said in the 1911 census that Gertrude was born in St Georges in the East and assuming that she may have been previously married etc, I did a search on FreeBMD for just the forename between 1882 and 1884 in St Georges' registration district.

Births Sep 1882: Baldwin, Gertrude - St. Geo. East - 1c - 363.
Births Dec 1882: Hostler, Gertrude Maud - St. Geo. East - 1c - 373.

Births Jun 1883: Bright, Gertrude - St Geo East - 1c - 400.
Births Sep 1883: FAUX, Gertrude - St. Geo. East - 1c - 393.
Births Dec 1883: Bowring, Gertrude Beatrice - St Geo East - 1c - 373.

Births Jun 1884: Buckler, Gertrude Blanche - St. Geo. East - 1c - 408.
Births Sep 1884:
Albrow, Gertrude Mary - St. Geo. East - 1c - 380.
Burwood, Gertrude Lizzie - St Geo.East - 1c - 386.
Mayes, Gertrude Emmeline - St. Geo. East - 1c - 341.

Births Dec 1884: Kirby, Gertrude Daisy - St. Geo. East - 1c - 400.

Hopefully, one of the above will appear in the 1891 with a mother Leah although it would be worth checking for deaths first to eliminate them, and because Gertrude never used a second forename or initial leaving those to last.

DS

Post by **steveboler** » 03 Sep 2011 13:31

Hi, Thanks for the info. Not the right date. In a previous message put in the wrong birth date for Gertrude.
In the last message with "the connection" I put in the right date "1895".
Very sorry.

Regards

Steve xx

Post by **MaryA** » 03 Sep 2011 14:26

When making a post you will see buttons in the top right corner of your message, "quote", "edit" etc. so if you make a mistake in your post you can choose the "edit" button and amend what you have written.

Using the free index for the 1911 census, Gertrude Godstein gives her birthdate as 1893, not 1895. The date given on a death certificate has been provided by the person registering the death - who obviously won't be the person themselves, so it may not be correct.

Post by **Hilary** » 03 Sep 2011 14:44

I knew this all sounded familiar

Your previous post about the family is titled Electoral Rolls 1900s and was on started Sunday 7 August

To save any duplication of effort MaryA could you make a link between the 2 posts.

It's much easier for the crew if people don't start a new post about the same family but just continue with the original.

Post by **MaryA** » 03 Sep 2011 14:50

Oh heck, duplication of everybody's efforts.
http://liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB ... rolls+1900

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