George Henry Thompson

Post by **Irene** » 01 Sep 2011 19:24

It's all so strange but the information found so far, although it doesn't tie with family memories, seems correct.
My grandmother was Eveline Mc.Fawn (born Knowles). She first married a Butler E. but divorced him and then remarried Mc Fawn A. My mother is Butler's daughter.
Eveline had 2 brothers: Evelyn T, and Arthur R. I found that all three had the same mother's name on the BMD and that name was Thompson. I knew her name was Louise and I also knew that the father was a Robert Knowles. I looked it up but couldn't find anything so ordered birth certificate. There the parents are named Daisy Louisa Thompson and Richard Robert Knowles (first surprise! Names were slightly different). I then ordered marriage certificate and found their ages, professions, and father's names and professions (second surprise: they married late, in a methodist church, she had worked as a typist and she had never mentioned it and her father was a "gunsmith" and we all thought he was in the army!). But the dates all seem to fit! I took the two addresses on the marriage certificate and checked the census for the year before they married (1911), his family were in Liverpool (3^surprise...weren't they from the Isle of Man?! We are quite sure!) and she didn't live at the address she gave, however before that (other censuses) she was living with her family (...but didn't they die in India and she came back an orphan?). You see...I can't deny the facts but on the other hand I can't help feeling there is something strange that I missed (another marriage, an adoption...) as it doesn't correspond with what my mother (who knew them) remembers. How could her gran's house be full of Indian furniture and artifacts in times when people didn't have bread to eat because of the war? My did they go every year to the Isle of Man to visit relatives? just doesn't make sense!

Post by **Hilary** » 01 Sep 2011 21:32

The only thing I can suggest is that maybe it was a generation earlier that were in India. Or it was on the other side of the family.

It would be worth investigating wills I think.

Post by **dickiesam** » 01 Sep 2011 21:52

RE:

Education Officer:
I think we need to start again as your family information doesn't tie in with what has been found.

For the crew..
In case we start to work backwards..

Marriage: BUTLER, Edwin G and KNOWLES, Eveline L
Registration District: Liverpool South; County: Lancashire
Year/qtr of Registration: 1944 / Jan-Feb-Mar
Volume No: 8B; Page No: 297.

Birth: BUTLER, Pamela
Registration District: Liverpool North; County: Lancashire
Year/qtr of Registration: 1945 / Jul-Aug-Sep
Mother's Maiden Name: Knowles
Volume No: 8B; Page No: 744.

Births Dec 1913 - W. Derby - 8b - 1270: Knowles, Eveline L nee Thompson.

Regarding the Indian 'saga' something doesn't fit. If it is in essence true I think Irene may be looking at the wrong family pre-1900. To go out to India, accumulate a house-load of furniture over a period of time [indicating they were well established out there] and bring it back would take considerable expense. Certainly a lot more than a soldier could afford unless he was a fairly senior officer. A merchant could do it but could a gunsmith?

And then there's the IoM connection... And, if I have read correctly, if the orphan came back from India how could they bring back the furniture? There may be a couple of stories intertwined into one and embellished for effect. We all have at least one such family story and I've a couple of beauties.

DS

Post by **MaryA** » 01 Sep 2011 22:02

Does anybody in the family remember Daisy and when she died and where? Just double checking that you have the correct Louise?

Daisy L Knowles died in Q4 1958 Liverpool South 10 511 age 77.

Post by **Hilary** » 01 Sep 2011 22:41

The family of the gunsmith are not what you'd think of as wealthy. they don't have even a servant.

Families who could afford to ship furniture etc back would have been wealthy!!! Certainly not ordinary soldiers not that there seems any evidence of army on what has been found.

I too wonder if somehow stories have got entwined.

My best family story said the family came from Italy were cabinet makers and settled in Shropshire - we've been in Lancashire definitely since the 1500s no cabinet makers and never lived in Shropshire!!!!!!

Post by **Blue70** » 01 Sep 2011 22:56

Some stories can turn out to be true such as the two sisters in our family that went to Chicago. Other stories such as Brian Jacques being part French (I have a distant family connection to his father) can turn out to be wrong - the Jacques family came to Liverpool from the St Helens area.

Blue

Post by **Tina** » 02 Sep 2011 08:15

Hi Irene

There are copyright issues with publishing info from 1911 census.
I have 1911 Gores/Kellys
37 Castor St was Charles Albert Condy a Steward.

10 Credworth St Upper Parliament St to Smithdown Lane
Robert Knowles no occupation.

Tina

Post by **dickiesam** » 02 Sep 2011 10:56

Hello Irene,
Regarding the IoM connection and those trips there in the family history.. Isn't it possible that the connection is not a 'blood' one but a close friends' link?

The info you discovered in the 1911, that you are free to publish here, turned up an interesting link at the Castor Street address. The occupier, Florence Conde, 22 year old wife of Charles Albert Conde, was the sole resident. Charles, from Tina's find in Gores/Kellys, was a steward [almost certainly a ship's steward, which would account for him being absent in the census]. His wife Florence was from the IoM and could have become a great friend of 'Daisy' Thompson who could have moved in with her with Charles being away at sea. It could account for Daisy being at Castor Street when she married and the IoM connection if Florence moved back to the IoM later.

DS

Post by **Irene** » 02 Sep 2011 14:23

I perfectly understand that all you say makes sense and must be the truth.

Daisy lived in 72 Langton Road, one of the big houses with the double windows on the front and the roof top room. They were living there because her husband Robert was a policeman at Laurence Road so it was a convenient distance. My mum went to private schools (her grandparents paid) first at Windsor Hight and then, when that closed down, she was taking in at St. David's because she was considered an art talent.

My mum lived with my gran till she died (from 1945-1958 so she was 13 when she died) as her mum had to go out to work till she married again and she remembers the furniture, the Indian cooking and the stories. And my mum is still alive! As I said we still have part of the furniture. The rest was sold to an antique dealer when Daisy died as there was so much of it. Can't imagine how Daisy had it if she didn't go herself to India or her family had it. Could Sarah, her mother, be the one that went to India I wonder?

People in Langton Road still remember Daisy, or Mrs Knowles as they called her. But she was a woman that kept to herself and wasn't on first name terms with neighbours.

This is turning into a real mystery! Maybe I'm not meant to know.

Thank you all so much for your help!

Post by **dickiesam** » 02 Sep 2011 15:36

Hello Irene,
RE:

This is turning into a real mystery! Maybe I'm not meant to know.

Puzzled! Nothing unusual in that but its a bit early in the day...
How did Daisy and her husband manage to live in a big house, send their g.daughter to a private school, on a bobby's wage? There had to be family money from somewhere and that would fit with the Indian furniture.

Hilary suggested earlier I think, that it would be a good idea to look at wills. What did Daisy leave and what did her parents leave, etc. It's 'follow the money' time.

DS

Post by **Hilary** » 02 Sep 2011 16:06

What do you know about PC Knowles? When was he born and what are his parents' names?

Post by **Irene** » 08 Sep 2011 20:31

Sorry I'm answering only now...

Well this is another mystery. As I said my mum is absolutely certain he was from the Isle of Man. But we know differently from the census references, don't we?

So I contacted Merseyside police and a volunteer answered. She said documentation regarding that period has been destroyed and that the only evidence she found is an identification card on which Robert Knowles was dismissed from service in 1919 following the Liverpool Strike. I sent her a photo of him in his police uniform and and there is a number on his collar. I don't know if she identified the number or the name.
I know, because my grandmother told me, he was patroling the docks during the second world war and she used to go with him because she was in the red cross.
What we found in the census about a Richard Robert or Robert Knowles names him living with his mother and father (see previous posts).

He was in the police orchestra if that helps.

Post by **Hilary** » 08 Sep 2011 22:06

Please could you post the census entries for Richard/Robert Knowles and what was his father's name? Richard/Robert died in 1948 and he was born in 1877 as I understand it. You say he was patrolling the docks maybe he was a night watchman/air raid warden.

Many Police men were sacked following the Police strike. You would probably need to research in the Watch committee minutes to find more. These are at Liverpool Record Office.

I think you need to check directories to find out what is given as his occupation post 1919. Maybe he made lots of money after the strike. Diectories are also at Liverpool Record Office.

Post by **Irene** » 09 Sep 2011 14:35

We know that at a point he bought some cabs and opened a taxi service employing ex convicts. When he died his son Arthur inherited the taxis but didn't have a flair for business and soon had to sell up.

On Richard/Robert Knowles marriage certificate his father is "Robert Knowles", he was still living (1912) and his job says "Station Wagon Inspector".

Post by **Irene** » 09 Sep 2011 14:48

There are two census entries for 1911 corresponding to the address on the marriage certificate:

The first lists: 10 Credworth St Upper Parliament Street to Smithdown Lane lists a Robert Knowles with no occupation.

The second 10 Credworth St in Everton lists a Robert living with his family (but then in the other previous censuses he's called Richard...!?) and he is a police constable and his father 53 is a Wagon Repairer from Whiston.

We have a photo of Richard Robert in an inspector's uniform so he can't have been sacked following the riots although family memories say he was in one and had to resign because he "stuck by his men". No idea if he was later re-integrated.

My great-grandparents didn't leave a will: only two children survived them and so it was arranged that Arthur would take over the taxi business and Eveline the house and it's contents. As a matter of fact Eveline sold to an antique dealer all the contents of the house and split the money between the two families.

Oh...Robert was also involved in shipping cattle to Europe.

So, it's not as if we don't know much about the family. We do...but there is no evidence and what we have found so far...

Post by **Hilary** » 09 Sep 2011 17:07

I definitely think you need to make a study of directories to track Richard/Robert down.

Perhaps you could post the photo for us to see this mystery man!

Post by **Hilary** » 09 Sep 2011 17:10

I found this on Wikipedia

Liverpool City Police, however, supported the strike. Of the 1,874 members of the Liverpool City Police, 954 went on strike. The Bootle police union claimed that 69 out of 70 officers had joined the strike.[2] The grievances of police in Liverpool were for many years ignored by a local Watch Committee noted for its disciplinarian attitude, which helped foster the propensity for collective action. The poor conditions in the Liverpool Police were well-known amongst other forces in England. On the day the strike started in Liverpool, strikers formed into ranks and decided to march on police stations around the city in an attempt to persuade those not on strike to join them. Police strikers found themselves confronting fellow officers that had not joined the strike, some of whom were union members.

The consequences for the people of Liverpool were far greater than those in the capital. Left without an effective police presence, public order in some areas broke down and resulted in what the Liverpool Daily Post (4 August 1918) called 'an orgy of looting and rioting'[2]. This continued for three or four days before the military, aided by non-striking police, brought the situation under control, but at the cost of several lives and more than 200 arrests for looting. The final outcome of the strike was that every man who had gone on strike throughout the country was dismissed from his respective force. Not one striker was reinstated anywhere, and all lost their pension entitlements.[

Post by **Irene** » 09 Sep 2011 17:46

The case of the "mystery couple" I'd call it! Wrong names, mystery voyages to India, money and furniture appearing from nowhere, birth place misplaced and the mystery woman living with my great-grandmother before she married! Let's call Sherlock Holmes!

How do I post a picture?

Yes, I even contacted Brian Something who has a whole site on the Big strike with information and pictures. My great-grandfather's picture is posted there as I sent him a copy.

So...we can agree that if I have a picture of him in his inspector's uniform he can't have been sacked after the strike when he was still a constable, right?

So why is there no record of him? 1948 is not that long ago is it?

Post by **Katie** » 09 Sep 2011 18:54

Having read all the posts on this query I am just as confused. Robert Knowles was a policeman so there should be a record of him in The Watch Committe minutes. This will give you his badge number and also when he became a policeman. It is time consuming going through them but if you work back from the date you have him recorded as a policeman it should not take too long. Also recorded in the minutes is the Police Strike. There is a index at the fron of the volumes so you may be lucky and his name is recorded there.

Post by **dickiesam** » 09 Sep 2011 19:48

Just a thought...

There is conflicting data here. Could there have been 2 Robert Knowles in the Liverpool Police Force? A sacked constable is not going to finish up as an inspector. As far as I am aware none of the sacked men were ever reinstated. My dad's best mate was a young PC during the strike, on the wrong side. He loved his job and applied several times for reinstatement, but it never happened.

And a police inspector is an unlikely person to be on patrol in the docks area during the raids of WW2, some 40 plus years after he was a constable. I'd say he could have been an ARP Warden.

DS

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