Convent of Notre Dame, Mt Pleasant, Liverpool

[Jaychris]

Would anyone be able to help, please, either by directing me to the records of the Convent and of the Walton Workhouse (replaced by Walton Hospital) or by some info about the following?

Mary Guest, b c1864, 1881 C - listed as pupil-teacher at the Convent

Jessie - dtr of Mary - b abt 1888/89, supposedly at the Walton Workhouse but not certain. I would have expected her birth surname to be Guest but she is listed in 1891 as Jessie Cooke-Thomas, Thomas being the surname of the man Mary married on 25 January 1891.

Any help would be much appreciated.

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

I'm a little confused where you get the surname "Cooke-Thomas" from. I see an 1891 marriage between
Mary W Guest and Joseph H Thomas at St Mary's Edge Hill.

and also the 1891 census I suspect is them at 25 Severn Street, Everton
All born Liverpool
Joseph Henry Thomas Head M 26 Baker
Mary W Wife M 26
Jessie daur 2
William son 8 months
RG12; Piece: 2954; Folio 131; Page 34

Jessie may indeed be Joseph's child, especially since they married so soon after her birth, however as an unmarried woman Mary should have registered the birth in her own surname, unless Joseph was with her to claim parentage. It would also appear that William was born prior to the marriage.

[MaryA]

The records for the Walton Workhouse are held at the Liverpool Record Office
353 WES/13 Records of Walton Workhouse 1866 - 1952

[Jaychris]

The Mary Guest, being Mary A, at the Convent is obviously not 'mine'. Mine was baptized Mary Waters Guest, born 1864, Reg. West Derby. I can't find her anywhere in 1881.

Jessie is my grandmother. She married in 1913, giving her surname as Cooke-Thomas. I've been searching for a birth record under the surname Cooke, Cooke and Cooke-Thomas to no avail.

Jessie celebrated her birthday on 21 July and was believed born 1888/89.
It was always believed among the older family members (older than I am!) that Jessie was illegitimate and Thomas was not her father, however now I'll search for Jessie Thomas born 1888/89.

[Jaychris]

Sorry, Mary A. I now realize that I've read your reply wrongly and taken the Mary Guest at the Convent to be Mary A Guest.

Must be coffee-time!

[Tina]

Hi folks as Mary has already listed:
Marriage Mary Waters Guest
father William
to Joseph Henry Thomas
father Henry
25.1.1891
St Mary's Edge Hill

Have we got this?
Baptism in IGI for Mary Waters Guest
26.6.1864 Kirkdale
father William mother Elizabeth
Through the batch number is Isabella Esther
18.8.1861

Tina

[Hilary]

Is this them in 1901?

171 Towson St Everton
Joseph Thomas 36 bread baker
Mary W wife 36
William A son 3
Jessie C Thomas daur 12
all bn Liverpool

[Tina]

I'm not sure if this is of any help?
Marriage Isabella Esther 1880 to John A Sharp
Lpool St Simons
(Lancs BMD)

Tina

[Hilary]

Jessie's marriage is on Ancestry she marries Christopher John Charles Robinson in 1913 at St John the Evangelist Everton. On her marriage certificate she is Jessie Cooke Thomas. her father is listed as Joseph Henry Thomas deceased baker.

There is this Jessie Cook September Q West derby Reg District volume 8b page 426

Can she be found in 1891?

[Jaychris]

Thanks, got a copy of the marriage cert for Jessie and Christopher.

I'm now beginning to realize how cruel Mary may have been to Jessie (many stories passed down the line) and that Jessie may indeed by the daughter of Joseph Henry Thomas and not some other man as alleged by Mary.

Since the feeling is that JHT is indeed Jessie's father, I'll go down that line of thought now.

Incidentally, the Isabella marriage is probably Mary Guest's sister so thank you for that piece of info which I did not have.

[Tina]

No luck in 1871, so frustrating until this
Isabella E 9 g/dghtr, Mary W 7 ditto & William R 3 all born Kirkdale
50 Westminster St Kirkdale
Grandpa William looks like Geust..transcribed as Giust
68 (1803) Lymm Ches
ESTHER 68 bn Drighlington Lancs.
Could Mary W's parents have died before this census?

Tina

[Hilary]

I'd keep an open mind until you have proof either way.

There's always the other way of looking at Joseph was the father but the mother wasn't Mary possibly someone called Cook/Cooke

I have an instance in my family of an illegitimate child born in the workhouse no mention of father mother dies and from then on the child is with her natural father although he is married to someone else. She and her children are later named in his will as his child and grandchildren.

Families are very strange things.

[Jaychris]

Thank you Hilary. I never thought of this but with the stories of cruelty passed down, I would not be surprised that Mary was not the natural mother even though my Gran (Jessie) nursed her when she was dying.

Yes, Tina. Mary was living with her siblings and grandparents in that Census, her mother, Elizabeth, having died in childbirth when Mary was very young. The reason I believed Mary was in Notre Dame Convent in 1881 was that her father went on to marry a Roman Catholic even though Elizabeth was Free Church Scotland. This, together with the passed-down stories of Mary's wild behaviour, made me suspect that she was sent to the Convent to improve her character.

Mary's father did not have much luck with wives; his second one died young in 1881.

All this is based on family history passed from one generation to the next.

[Hilary]

Have you tried the Jesse Cook I found above?

I doubt very much that the Convent would have accepted a non Catholic as a pupil teacher.

[MaryA]

Although it was my suggestion that Joseph may have been her father, that is all it is - a possibility as are the suggestions that have been made by other forum members. Keep an open mind and one day you may find out the truth, however if you find the birth certificate, and discover no father's name noted on it, you may just have to accept that she was illegitimate and the name of the father might have died with Mary.

[dickiesam]

On FreeBMD:

Births Sep 1888: COOK, Jessie - W Derby - 8b - 426.
Births Mar 1890: COOK, Jessie - Toxteth Park - 8b - 202.

The first one looks promising; is the baptism on Ancestry?

DS

[Jaychris]

Thanks, Hilary.

A cousin still based in Lancashire travelled into Liverpool Record Office a couple of weeks ago to look for this Jesse Cook as we were aware of her but the Record Office was being refurbished and the records had been transferred to Crosby. She is going there within the next few weeks when she has time so we hope to discover more about the Jesse you mentioned.

[Jaychris]

Will ask my cousin to check both of these births.

Thanks.

[Hilary]

Unless there is a baptism for this Jessie already on the web the only way to find out is to purchase the birth certificate. You cannot see birth certificates before purchasing them.

I'm not sure what you mean about Lancashire Record office records being transferred to Crosby.

Lancashire Record Office is closed until October all their records are still there nothing has been transferred. They do not hold many Liverpool baptism records.

Liverpool Record Office is in temporary premises but everything is still available although some things have to be ordered in advance

Crosby Library now holds all of Sefton Local History (transferred from Southport via Formby) but I can't see how that will help as it's a birth you want.

If the Jessie Cook cannot be found in 1881 it is a possibility she is yours but if she is illegitimate the father's name will not be given on the birth certificate

A baptism may possible have useful information but unless it's on Ancestry lan-opc or family search there's an awful lot of churches to search!

[dickiesam]

This would appear to be Mary Waters Guest's widowed father in 1881:

GUEST, William - Head - Widower - 50 - Wood Carver & Joiner -(Unemployed) - Lpool.
GUEST, William R - Son - 13 - Lpool.
GUEST, John J - Son - 8 - Scholar - Lpool.
GUEST, Charlotte E - Dtr - 6 - Scholar - Lpool.
GUEST, Priscilla - Dtr - 2 - Lpool.
GUEST, Esther - Mother - Widow - 78 - Wrightington, Lancashire.
Address: 69 Towson St, Everton, Lancashire.
RG11 / Piece:3669 / Folio:112 / Page:9.

Found a death for William's first wife, Elizabeth:
Deaths Dec 1867> Guest, Elizabeth - 34 - W. Derby - 8b - 361.

But haven't found William in the 1871. From the 1851 census he was an apprentice ship carver [HO107 - 2190 - 557 - 51].

DS