Connor - perplexing

[perry]

Hi all,
I'm a researcher from NZ. My dilema is the Connor branch of my family.

Specifically Michael Connor b. 1899-1967 and his father Michael Connor Snr abt May 1867 - June 1912.

I have found good family record from the 1911 census - lived in Pellew St. Liverpool.

Michael Senior married Elizabeth Ball Jun 1895-I have Marriage Cert.

But both Michael Snr and Elizabeth died in 1912.! Apparently she fell down pub cellar. He of "broken heart" Children 3 Michael, William put into boys home Mary put into service.

I have found Mary.

Problem I cant establish family in 1901 census? Or earlier

Cant find Baptism records for Children.

Have checked Ancestry and RC records. They were Catholic so could it be the records from church arent on line?

Any help from the more experienced appreciated

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Just a few queries please,

Can you give the dates of birth of William and Mary
Please give the full details from Michael & Elizabeth's marriage certificate, including witnesses.
From the documentation that you have, there is a number of years married given, can you tell us how many it says and is the birthplace given as Liverpool for everybody?
Are there any family stories that suggest that the family may have been from Ireland?
The LancsBMD site gives the marriage taking place in Liverpool, St. Simon can you confirm that Elizabeth's surname is actually Ball and not Bale as is given on that site.

There are two St Philips churches on the Genuki site http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Li ... s1902.html one in St Vincents Street and the other St Simon and St Jude in Anfield Road. Both of these appear to be C of E not RC.

[MaryA]

For the information of any of our forum members

The marriage took place in St Simon's (believe this to be the St Vincent Street one which is not far from Hilbre Street) on 30 June 1895
Michael Connor 27 Bachelor Labourer 37 Bolton Street Father Michael Connor, Shoemaker
Elizabeth Ball 27 Spinster 15 Hilbre Street Father John Ball, Tinplate Worker
Both made their marks
Witnesses William Connor and Jane Quigley

[MaryA]

I believe I have the Ball family in the following censuses if you want details.
1891 RG12; Piece: 2913; Folio 114; Page 26
1881 RG11; Piece: 3620; Folio: 94; Page: 29
and 1871 RG10; Piece: 3788; Folio: 11; Page: 15 (Joseph and Samuel are lodgers not sons)

[colette]

Hi Perry

1891 7 Jones St Rodney St area

Head Mary A Conner age 54 Widow b Ireland
Son William age 26 Dock Labourer b Liverpool
Son Michael age 25 Cellar Bottler Labourer b Liverpool
Dau Ann Kelly age 38 Widow b Ireland
Grandson Bartholomew Kelly age 14 b Liverpool.

In 1911 Michael lived at Pellew St.. Jones Street was 2 streets away..NOW need to find any of them in 1901

xx

[dickiesam]

Hi Perry,
I am also finding it difficult to locate the family in 1901.

You mentioned a daughter Mary as being put into service [domestic, I presume?] when the parents died in 1912. For that to happen she was probably older than 12 and therefore born sometime before 1901. She isn't at 42 Pewsey Street the year before her parents died so do you have her birth? Sadly only 3 children out of 9 born have survived.

I did find an RC baptism for a Mary and a Michael Connor but while their mothers' maiden name was Ball in both records, the given forenames for the mothers are Lily and Catherine. Perhaps they are not your Connors.

From http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk/index.htm
Church ST NICHOLAS - birth 1896 - bapt 1896 - MARY ANN CONNOR - father MICHAEL - mother CATHERINE - m/n BALL.
Church ST NICHOLAS - birth 1899 - bapt 1899 - MICHAEL CONNOR - father MICHAEL - mother LILY - m/n BALL.

Her absence from Pewsey Street leads me to believe she had already left home to work before the parents died.

Dickiesam

[colette]

Hi again

1881 12 Edward St

Head Henry Martin age 53 Shoemaker b Lpool
Wife Mary Ann age 44 b Dublin Ireland
Dau Ann Kelly 24 b Kings County Ireland
Son William Connor age 17 b Liverpool Cellar Bottler
Son Michael Connor age 14 Errand Boy b Lpool
Son Michael John age 5 must be Martin....

1871 42 Ainsworth St

Head Henry Martin age 40 Bootmaker b Lpool
Wife Mary Ann age 32 b Ireland
Dau Anna Maria age 14 b Ireland
Dau Jane age 12 b Lpool
Son William age 8 b Lpool
Son Michael age 4 b Lpool

Marriage Mary Ann Connor to Henry Martin Sept 1870

All these streets are right by each other....

Gotta find Mary Ann in 1861 now if Jane is her daughter she says she was born in Liverpool c1859, Anna Maria will be Ann who becomes Kelly later on.

Regards xx

[perry]

Firstly a big thank you for diving in and helping!

I'll deal with the posts in order if thats ok.

MaryA

To answer the question on DOB
Mary Anne Connor [sister of Michael]3 Sep 1896. Yes domestic service and she was older than the boys.
She married Robert Musgrave Sefton Oct 1920. St Simons Church. Michael Connor father obviously deceased. Shown as Butler[bottler more likely] Witnesses Frank Carter Mulvey and Ivy May Curlett. Address 42 and 45 Warren St?

William we are guessing but b. abt 1902 9 in 1911 census. Mary Anne gone by then.

Now back to the Michael Connor Snr and Elizabeth Ball

Yes you have the marriage correct. I have cert.

MaryA
Can you give me the districts so I can look up via ancestry for those the Ball census. I have father John Tin plate worker/whitesmith through to 1871 then loose him?

Ys I have seen references to Bale and I'm treating as an alternate.


DickieSam,
You are on to it I think both those records are correct (they seem the right years) and in the right area Copperas Hill but not sure about the "Catherine "reference. Still need to pick up on census?

Collette
Thanks but thats not them I'm afraid, William younger than Michael, 9 in 1911. Mary Anne older sister married Robert Sefton, see above.

So I still haven't got them in 1901, 1891, 1881
They were around as I have marriage for Michael Snr and Elizabeth, in 1895 show Michael snr father Michael Snr2 as shoemaker address liverpool-37 Bolton St

I have my docs on ancestry....is it kosher to point you there?

Still Perplexed! But thanks....any other I ideas. I'm a fan of the proximity/probability.


Perry

[colette]

Hi

Jane Connor married Patrick Quigley in 1878..so i do have the correct family as Jane was the witness to Michael her brothers marriage to Elizabeth Ball...William Connor the other witness was his brother..

1881 8 Edward St

Patrick Quigley age 30 Seaman or Labourer b Lpool
Jane age 24 b Lpool
Dau Mary Ann age 2 b Lpool

1891

10 Jones St

Jane Quigley Married age 32 b Lpool
Mary Ann age 13 b Lpool
Margaret age 11 b Lpool
Ann age 8 b Lpool
Jessie age 7 ????? b Lpool
William age 5 b Lpool

Can anyone find them in 1901

xx

[colette]

Hi Perry

I have given you Michael senior as a boy born in 1866 with his mother Mary Ann..who remarried a Henry Martin...Michael had an older brother William born 1864..you will find this is his family..his sister Jane like i said married Patrick Quigley..shes his witness at his marriage..

regarding Michael & Elizabeth in 1901 they are no where to be found maybe they took a trip to Ireland.

xx

[perry]

Hi Colette

Just playing catch -up. Thought you were refering to Michael Connor b. 1899 and William b.1902. Sorry you are definitely on to something.

Looks like your saying that Michael b. May 1867 was not a child of Mary Anne and Henry Martin but of previous marriage? Hence the name Connor

Is that your thinking?

Perry

[perry]

Colette, MaryA and Dickiesam

Looks like I owe you a beer....or sauvignon blanc!

I'll spend the next week piecing this all together on my ancestry tree

Thanks so much!

I will be back though as I have one other Liverpool connection which has foxed me.

Also thanks for the clarification Hillbre St. I couldnt work that out on the BMD.

Thanks to you all.

[MaryA]

MaryA
Can you give me the districts so I can look up via ancestry for those the Ball census. I have father John Tin plate worker/whitesmith through to 1871 then loose him?

1891 RG12; Piece: 2913; Folio 114; Page 26
1881 RG11; Piece: 3620; Folio: 94; Page: 29
and 1871 RG10; Piece: 3788; Folio: 11; Page: 15

You won't need the districts, just put the references in the boxes at the bottom of the search and you will get the list of names on that page.

[colette]

Hi Perry

Yes it looks like all 4 kids were Mary Ann and former hubby which must be Michael Connor a Shoemaker as son Michael's marriage certificate says.. i would hazard a guess that Henry Martin and Michael were mates both being Shoemakers..i guess Michael must have died between 1866 and 1870.

The family should be in Liverpool in 1861 as Jane born c 1859 was born in Liverpool..they seem to live in the same area all their lives off Copras Hill by Lime Street Station..even Elizabeth Ball did.
Cannot seem to find any Baptisms for Michael & Mary Ann's kids maybe not church going people.

Bit confused about the little boy down as Michael John aged 5 in 1881..he has to be the child of Henry Martin and Mary Ann so hes a Martin...but why call another Michael, when you already have one..unless he should be John Michael..

I have scoured the 1901 and definalty cannot see Michael and Elizabeth.

Its funny how in 1891 Mary Ann reverts back to her former name Connor, proberbly looks better as her two sons William and Michael are Connor..


xx

[perry]

Thanks again Colette

I've written up the detail for my Mum (75) and shes rapt!

She has no idea of her relatives other than her immediate family. My uncle now in NZ too (her brother) also equally unaware. So this has been marvellous because despite 100's of quid on BMD's I couldn't get the picture.

I should have blogged 3 years ago.


I really do appreciate the help.

Perry

[colette]

Hi Perry

Glad to help I love digging around one thing you will find with me is i dont give up..I think they all know this on the forum haaaaaaaaaaa..

I will keep on looking till i find the family in 1861 and Michael & Elizabeth in 1901..its normaly spelling errors or the writting is real bad, if we could find a baptism for Jane that would help with an address to pin point them in 1861.

Be back intouch if i find anything

xx

[perry]

I'll get on to that too...trying to get all the info into ancestry....and busy looking after 3 kids under 7 right now so getting anything done is challenging!!!!

Cheers

Perry

[simone]

marriage of Henry to Mary took place at St Nicholas 18/9/1870. It was a Catholic marriage and states Mariam Annam Connor de Brownlow Hill, relictam (widow?)Michaelis Connor. Henricam Martin de Ainsworth Street filium Henrici Martin.
witnesses Henrici Fitzpatrick, 19 Ainswworth Street
Elizabeth Kearns 34 Ainsworth Street.

also another marriage 19 july 1870 of Catherine Martin, Ainsworth Street, also daughetr of Henric Martin, to Patritium Josephus Lynch of Jones Street.

had a look for burials for Michael Connor, loads of infants with this name.. closest I am getting is 2/4/1869 at St Mary's age 35
Simone x

[perry]

Thanks Simone

If anyone can find Michael Connor in 1901 or 1861 be very grateful....

Perry

[simone]

just to add

Church ST NICHOLAS - birth 1899 - bapt 1899 - MICHAEL CONNOR - father MICHAEL - mother LILY - m/n BALL

could be yours as Lily was a known pseudonym for Elizabeth at that time. I have one in my tree