The France Family

Post by **caerfach** » 10 Feb 2011 19:34

My family has been traced back to Samuel Charles France, born in the parish of St Peters Liverpool around 1820. He gave his father's name and occupation as William France, Joiner, on his marriage certificate. I have looked through the St Peters parish records available online but I have not found any record of his baptism. He had left Liverpool to join the army just before the 1841 census. I have checked through the 1841 census and 1851 and I can find only one William France living in Liverpool. His occupation is either a labourer or dock porter.
Please can anyone help me, I seem to have hit a brick wall. Are there any other records that I can check that would help me prove or disprove that the William France I have found in the '41 and '51 census is Samuel Charles' father?

Post by **Tina** » 11 Feb 2011 07:18

Hi and welcome on behalf of the forum

Just a couple of quick questions, could you tell us the date of Samuel's marriage please, William being alive at this time?
Have you got a baptism record for Samuel? You mentioned 1820 & St Peter's.
It's a toughie looking for Wm as he may not be from the county.
Nothing in 1832 Poll Book
Nothing in 1854 Gores/Kellys

Good luck with your search

Tina

Post by **MaryA** » 11 Feb 2011 10:06

Hi and welcome to the forum.

I also don't understand how you are sure the baptism would have taken place in St Peters. This was the Parish Church of Liverpool, however, there were many other churches where he may have been baptised.

What is the earliest address you have for them? we may be able to suggest some other churches to search, however, I've exhausted my CD's and the online sites without any success.

I've also checked the 1824 and 1825 directories.

The Liverpool Record Office holds archives for the Freemans Registers and also some Rent Books, it won't be an easy job but at the moment these are what I can think of.

Hoping others might be able to make other suggestions.

Post by **caerfach** » 11 Feb 2011 11:34

Thank you

I have checked through a number of the online parish records for Liverpool looking for the baptims of Samuel Charles France without luck. You are correct, I am not familiar with the area and it is possible that I have missed out some churches. Charles' army papers state that he was born in the parish of St Peters.

I found a William France the right age to be his father, he married Elizabeth Jones in St Nicholas Church on 3rd Jan 1816. I have also found the baptism of their son William on 21 June 1818 and daughter Elizabeth 27th July 1827 in the records for St Peters church, their address at that time was Cunliffe Street. From the evidence given in the 1841 (where he is wrongly named Wm Francis) and 1851 census it would appear that this couple produced a very large family.

Are the parish records for St Peters complete? Is it unusual for only two in a family of possibly 10 or more children to be baptised?

Thank you for the suggestion of the Freemans registers and rentbooks, I wasn't aware of them. Are you able to give me an idea of the information they contain?
Charles was able to sign his marriage certificate and his army papers, are there any charity or Sunday school records that could be helpful?

Post by **MaryA** » 11 Feb 2011 13:01

To be honest there may not be a great deal of information in Freeman's Registers but if a man was a Freeman then this may be passed down to the son or to an Apprentice and there may be mentions of when they died.

If Charles father was a joiner it's a little more likely that he would be listed than if he were the labourer.

So far as I am aware the St Peter's Registers are complete, although it would be unlikely to have so many children unbaptised this may have taken place in another church if the family had moved.

There are some school records available, just enter the word School and I also entered the date 1820 in the Record Office Catalogue but the information in these may be quite scant.

Post by **Hilary** » 11 Feb 2011 17:26

caerfach wrote: Charles' army papers state that he was born in the parish of St Peters.

Please can you tell us the exact wording on the Army papers or better still scan the relevant page and you can post it here using these instructions

http://liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB ... php?t=9817

Does it not give an exact age or date of birth or next of kin?

Hilary
Ed Officer

Post by **MaryA** » 12 Feb 2011 09:02

Posted by Caerfach, but I'm including it here to keep the thread together.

Thank you for help, I hope you are able to locate my images.

The first page details Charles discharge from the 9th Regiment of Foot, the second page gives us the parish of St Peters Liverpool as his place of birth. The army papers available on FMP are mostly concerned with his time after his discharge from the 9th Foot when he transferred to the Hereford Militia. Unfortunately no home address or next of kin listed for Charles France in 1839.
Would the National Archives have papers relating to his time with the 9th Foot? Or would the regimental museum be more helpful.

Do you suppose it possible that he 'promoted' his father to Joiner to impress his new wife?

Post by **Tina** » 12 Feb 2011 09:07

Hi crew

I looked for baptisms in IGI, nothing more for Elizabeth
however through the batch number for Wm there is a George
1825 St Peter's.

This may help with 1841 census??

Tina

Oops they have been found as Francis in 1841, I was still searching first post from lister.

Emma bapt St P's 1833
thro the batch number Mary 1836

going up... Jane 1850 and Sarah Ellen same date.

7 baptisms so far woo hoo...

Post by **Katie** » 12 Feb 2011 09:08

Its says he was born in the Parish of St Peter's but he could have been baptised in a number of Churches in that area St John's Old Haymarket and others. You need to access the Parish records and other material ie apprentice records as suggested by MaryA. Directories etc. These are on microfilm at Liverpool.

Post by **MaryA** » 12 Feb 2011 09:08

The National Archives page http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/reco ... lp=rg-3081 has a lot of information and links that might help in your search.

Post by **Katie** » 12 Feb 2011 09:14

There are other records at Kew which may help WO20 I think These are the Muster Rolls I was able to find my Joseph Manleys brother and his mother's name from these. It does help knowing the regiment as well.

Post by **caerfach** » 14 Feb 2011 11:34

Thank you very much for all your help and interest, it is most encouraging. I was beginning to feel rather defeated by my lack of progress, but your suggestions and finds have lifted me back on track.
I was particularly interested to see the baptisms of George, Emma, Jane and Sarah Ellen - how did I miss those? I need to keep looking!

Excellent, thank you very much.

Post by **Marie** » 26 Feb 2011 18:44

This is my mother's family Sarah and Jane were twins. I found a marriage in St. Nicholas stating that William's birth place was Not known and became stuck. I then went on to trace my Williams side of the family, my Dad, back to 1700's. I need to start looking at the France's again. Perhaps the other member of the France's and I could work together?

Post by **MaryA** » 26 Feb 2011 18:56

Lovely to make contact with family, I hope you have some good research together.

Post by **Tina** » 27 Feb 2011 07:25

Hi Marie
So happy for you making a connection to both families.
Great news.

Tina

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