Byrne

[mmeldrum]

I am researching a Byrne family in Liverpool. I have the marriage certificate for Thomas Joseph Byrne (born about 1890) to Catherine Walsh. The certificate notes that Thomas' father was Michael James Byrne (deceased) and one of the witnesses was Michael James Byrne (I assume a brother). In 1891 & 1901 the only Thomas I can find in Liverpool that was born about 1890 with a father Michael, gives his middle initial as "P". I found a baptism for Thomas Patrick to Michael James Byrne and Mary Philbin. I guess my question is, would there be any conceivable reason that a child would be baptised as Thomas Patrick, show up in the census as Thomas P but on his marriage registration (and the birth registration for his daughter) clearly state Thomas Joseph?

There are two Thomas Joseph's born in the area around the same time but their fathers don't match my known info.

Everything I can find points Thomas Joseph back to the Thomas P in the Census...except for that middle name/initial.

Any suggestions?

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Well to confuse matters further, he may be noted as Thomas P in the 1901 census, but he is Thomas E in the 1891 census. Either of these entries or both could have been errors by the enumerator when re-writing the sheets.

Have you actually seen the entry for the baptism of Thomas in St Anne's or have you just found the entry on the Liverpool History Projects site? Also have you seen the entry in the Parish Register for the marriage of Thomas and Catherine?

As I suspect that the marriage also took place in an RC church, the baptism certificate should have been produced prior to the marriage and very often a notation was made in the margin, cross referencing the baptism. If this happened it might well give you the confirmation that you need.

[mmeldrum]

HI & Thanks for the response.

I was aware that Thomas was enumerated with an initial "E" in 1891 but I knew it was the right family. Because of the baptism record for Thomas Patrick, I wasn't surprised to see that in 1901. So I think the enumerator made in error in 1891 but was right in 1901.

As far as the baptism record, I have not seen the actual entry--just what I saw on the Liverpool History Projects site.

As far as the marriage for Thomas and Catherine, I actually have the certificate from GRO and, unfortunately, they married at the register office and not in a church. I was surprised at that, I admit.

But I guess I'm still no further ahead on this. I'm not sure what else to do on this. I have ordered a couple of certificates for Thomas Byrne but both were wrong and there were so many Thomas' born around 1890 in the Liverpool area!

[dickiesam]

Hi,
Can you post the date of the marriage of Thomas and Catherine, as well as the name of the other witness? And, what was Thomas' occupation when he married?

Dickiesam

[mmeldrum]

Thomas & Catherine were married November 1, 1919. The registration gives his father as Michael James Byrne (deceased). The witnesses were Michael James Byrne (I'm assuming a brother) and Mary Winnifred Cassidy (It appears that the two witnesses married each other in 1925). Thomas' occupation on the marriage registration was "clerk" but a year later on his daughter's birth registration it was listed as house builder.

[dickiesam]

I found a baptism for Thomas Patrick to Michael James Byrne and Mary Philbin.

Hi,
That baptism in 1889 looks certain to be the right one because in the 1901 a Cecelia Philbin is shown as Michael James' sister-in-law.
RG13 / 3493 / 171 35.

Being aware that the qtr and year in the GRO Index refers to the date of registration and not the birth itself, I think the birth was not registered until the following year. Quite possible, particularly if the birth was in, say, December '89.
Births Mar qtr 1890: Byrne, Thomas Patrick - W. Derby - 8b - 523.

The Thomas E Byrne [instead of P] in the 1891 census I believe to be a mistake in either hearing or when the name was transferred from the individual household form to the census enumeration page we see as an image.

However, I have a feeling something doesn't fit and the Thomas Joseph Byrne on the marriage cert is not the Thomas Patrick Byrne in the census. With a father born in Ireland why drop Patrick and adopt Joseph?
For instance: Births Sep 1891> BYRNE, Thomas Joseph - W.Derby - 8b - 517.

Then I found a Thomas Patrick Byrne in the Army aged 22, so he was born abt 1889 in Liverpool. He's a Private in the 1st Bn The Kings Own Regiment, based at Havelock Barracks, Lucknow, India. Coincidence?
Haven't yet found him in the WW1 Medal Roll.

Perhaps this is him in 1901 and his mother died in 1908 so he joined the Army?
BYRNE, Jane - Boarder - Widow - 47 - 1854 - Charwoman - Liverpool.
BYRNE, Thomas - Boarder - 10 - 1891 - Liverpool.
Address: 14 Botanic Street, West Derby, Liverpool.
RG13 / Piece:3488 / Folio:139 / Page:38.

Deaths Sep 1908> BYRNE, Jane - 57 - W.Derby - 8b - 358.

Dickiesam

[MaryA]

From the address etc., would this sound like your man?

British Army WWI Service Records - Document Year 1923
Territorial Army Attestation Papers
Thomas Joseph Byrne, 33 Maiden Lane, Clubmoor, Liverpool
DOB 27 May 1891
Trade - Assistant Linerman (Elect)
Married
Has served in R.O.D. Royal Engineers
W.R. 291550
Demobilized
Parents both British

Don't think that document year is quite right somehow, there is a lot of service information on Page 2, especially about training attended, and he served 9 years ending 22.8.1932
Discharged in consquence of Para 199 (1) TA Regulations 1929

Trying to find out if his wife is named.

[MaryA]

There is an entry on the next page that says "Prevented from attending camp 1926 for 15 days owing to civil Emergency. This period will reckon towards TA medal"

Are TA medal cards issued the same as other for others?

[dickiesam]

Bit extra...

Thomas Joseph Byrne was a signaller when in India. Fits with the later lines-man description.

DS

[MaryA]

This is quite an interesting guy.

There are letters when he reached 40 years old from the Colonel R. Signals, ?? 55th(W.L.) Division Signals T.A. stating that

The a/m? N.C.O. attained the age of 40 years on 27.5.1931.
It is desired to retain this N.C.O. until he attains the age of 45 years. He is an overhead wireman employed by Liverpool Corporation Tramways and is most useful in this unit.

and the authority returned to keep him until 45.

[MaryA]

Descriptive Return of a man of the Territorial Army Serving with West Lancs Division RE (Liverpool) Unit and Corps. at 59 Everton Road, Liverpool who is desirous of being posted/transferred from the West Lancs Division RE (Liverpool) Unit and Corps. to the Royal Corps of Signals Unit and Corps at Mason Street Liverpool.

Unit and Corps 254th (West Lancs) Field Coy RE 55th (WL) Divl RE TA No. 2209820
Rank and Name Lance Cpl. T J Byrne
Date of Attestation 23rd August, 1923 for 4 years, Re-engaged for 4 years. Service towards engagement 4 years and 3 months. Age 36 years and 3 months. Height 5 ft 9 inches, Trade Electrician, Born Liverpool, Lancashire.
Married or Single - left blank, Character VG
Musketry Qualification and Score - Failed to Qualify 1927

There are a lot of pages with very little notations on them, still searching for mention of a wife/family.

[MaryA]

Uh oh I've found her

Wife - Ann Byrne, 33 Maiden Lane, Clubmoor, Liverpool
Ann McNally, British, Spinster, married Liverpool 30.4.13 Witnesses S Barton and C Barton
Children - Thomas DOB 12.3.14 Liverpool

Height 5'9"
Weight 140 lbs
Chest 36"
Expansion 3"
Complexion Fresh
Eyes Blue
Hair Brown
Religious denomination RC

Oh dear, as his marriage to Catherine didn't take place until 1919 I had wondered if he had been widowed, unfortunately these documents seem to have been produced later than that so I've been following the wrong man.

If anybody discovers their own connection to this man, there are papers on Ancestry also giving clues to the dates he served abroad. He appears to have been a carter and lived in Wimbledon Street, Wavertree earlier.