Davies/Davis, William 4.5.1896 - Liverpool

[jan159937]

Good afternoon

I'm based on the south coast and am trying to find the birth of William Davies/Davis or William John Davies/Davis circa 4.5.1896. Obviously with a name like Davies/Davis it's proving problematical.

Is there anyone in the Liverpool are who's about to visit the Records office in Liverpool who might be kind enough to check out this birth record for me.

I believe his father to be John and his mother Emma (possibly nee Davis.) In the 1891 Census they were living in Everton so that might narrow it down a bit. John's occupation in 1891 as Assistant Storekeeper at an Iron Foundry. In 1901 John had died and Emma had remarried but still in Everton.

TIA
Jan

[dickiesam]

Hi Jan,
There is only one way to get information about a birth and that is to purchase the certificate. See this information post by MaryA.
http://liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB ... php?t=6937

Re: 4.5.1896. Where did you get that precise date from?

There are only 5 William Davies/Davis births in the 3 Liverpool registration districts of Liverpool, West Derby and Toxteth Park in the June quarter of 1896.
Births Jun qtr 1896:
Davies, William - Liverpool - 8b - 110.
Davies, William - Toxteth Park - 8b - 191.
Davies, William Charles - W. Derby - 8b - 605.
Davies, William Thomas - W. Derby - 8b - 405.

Births Jun qtr 1896:
Davis, William - W. Derby - 8b - 288.

You can discount 2 of them because of the 2nd forenames. If you know where the family were living in 1891, it might rule in or rule out Toxteth Park. If you are still left with a choice, then order a cert from the GRO and hope they will accept your specifying the parents' forenames if are sure of them.

That said...
This may not be your man but there's a baptism in 1896 that might be William. The mother is Ellen but his father is shown as James.
On the http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk/index.htm site:
At ST OSWALD / 282-OSW-1-4 (346) / bn 1896 / bapt 1896 / child WILLIAM DAVIS / father JAMES / mother ELLEN nee SMITH.

Dickiesam

[jan159937]

Many thanks Dickiesam for your investigations.

The precise date is from a letter from the Liverpool Board of Education circa 1959. William needed his proof of age for his pension and he didn't have a birth certificate and, with the same problem as I'm having, was finding it difficult to pinpoint birth registration with accuracy. I don't know how difficult it was in '59 to obtain a copy cert. However, the letter states his date of birth, from their records, as being 4.5.96 from his admittance to an industrial school circa 1905.

It's all been a bit of a muddle as his age on his marriage cert is out by two years if he was born in 96 and also in his army records his dob is wrong although there was no reason for him to lie, I think, as he was 18 in 1914. Unless there was something about not being 21 as I think, back then, that was the age of majority?

In 1891 his parents were living in Everton in Opie Street. In 1901 his father had died, his mother re-married and living at Edinburgh Street in Everton. Would that be noted as the Liverpool registration district do you know?

Jan

[Hilary]

It would not have been difficult to obtain a birth certificate in 1959. I have the copy birth certificate my father obtained in 1934 to prove his age to the Post Office.

What would have made it difficult would be if he was not registered in the name he subsequently used.

Usually children were admitted to Industrial Schools if they had committed an offence , were in danger of committing an offence, or in need of care and attention. It might be worth seeing if there are any records for the school. Which Industrial school was it?

Everton was in the West Derby Registration district.

Could I ask how you know you have the correct man in the 1901 census?

They had to (supposedly) be 18 to join up so he would have no need to lie.

To recap

You have a DOB from Liverpool Of Board Of Education
You have a different DOB on Army Records - how do you know this is your man
You have a possible year of birth on his marriage records

Please could you post the details from his marriage certificate.

Sorry for all the questions but there is something not right here.

Hilary
Ed Officer

[dickiesam]

In 1891 his parents were living in Everton in Opie Street. In 1901 his father had died, his mother re-married and living at Edinburgh Street in Everton.

Can you post the census page references for the 1891 and 1901 sightings of his family/mother? Like to start on firm ground, given the apparent variations in his birth year. When William married what was his occupation?

Are you sure of his parents' names in the absence of a birth cert. As Hilary pointed out it would not have been at all difficult to obtain a birth cert copy in 1959. And I would not be too concerned about variations in his YoB. With a 'disturbed' childhood [losing his father while still a toddler etc], it could be he never knew exactly when he was born although the 1901 census should be a reasonable guide.

Regarding his admittance to an industrial school in 1906, he might still be there in 1911. A free search on the National Archives site http://www.1911census.co.uk/ gave just 2 results as inmates in institutions 'close to home':
William Davies - YoB shewn as 1893 - District West Derby.
William Lemuel Wallace Davies - Yob shewn as 1894 - District Warrington.

You will need to buy credits to find out where either was and what they were doing as an occupation.

Dickiesam

[Hilary]

I think we definitely need the information from his marriage certifictae

Place, age, occupation, father's name and occupation

On Lancashire Roots Chat a possible baptism has been given at St Ambrose Everton. Was this also where he married?

Hilary
Ed Officer

[MaryA]

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.ph ... 921.0.html

Just so that research doesn't get duplicated.

How can you be sure that Emma's name is also Davies? Do you have a birth certificate of one of the other children to confirm this as LancsBMD give at least three John Davies/Emma marriages.

Also where does the William/William John come from when the family you have decided is yours in Opie Street, is John and Emma?

[jan159937]

Could I ask how you know you have the correct man in the 1901 census?

- I don't know definitively but there is a marriage of Emma Davies to Thomas Murphy in 1898 and the letter from the Education Board names Thomas Murphy as step-father. On the Census page the mother is Emma and there's an older brother Fred and he certainly did have a brother called Fred.

Please could you post the details from his marriage certificate.

He married in 1924 at the Register Office in Halifax, Yorkshire. His age is given as 28, his occupation was boiler services and his father is noted as John Davies (deceased) occupation Dockyard Labourer.

Sorry for all the questions but there is something not right here.

You're quite right, something is not right! I would like to try and make enquiries in Liverpool to see about the records of the industrial school. There is, I suppose, an outside possibility that the information they gave was actually for the wrong child.

[jan159937]

Can you post the census page references for the 1891 and 1901 sightings of his family/mother? Like to start on firm ground, given the apparent variations in his birth year. When William married what was his occupation?

The reference for 1901 is RG13/3474 folio 69 page 60. I haven't got a definitive entry for 1891.

Jan

[dickiesam]

Hi Jan,
Found the Murphy family in 1901 at 24 Edinburgh Street, Everton. Noticed difference in ages between the son Frederick and his siblings. Turns out, from looking into the future, that Frederick is a stepson to Thomas.

This is probably his birth:
Births Dec 1893> Davies, Frederick Francis - W. Derby - 8b - 525.

Although, confusingly, there is a Frederick Murphy birth in 1893 as well. But because Emma married Thomas Murphy in 1898, I'd say the Davies birth is the right one and William is also a stepson although he's not with his mother in the future census.

1891:
DAVIES, John - Head - Married - 26 - 1865 - Assistant Storekeeper Iron Foundry - Liverpool.
DAVIES, Emma - Wife - 21 - 1870- Liverpool.
Address: 95 Opie Street, Everton, Liverpool.
RG number: RG12 / Piece:2951 / Folio:64 / Page:10.

That census followed by:
Deaths Sep 1896> Davies, John - 32 - Toxteth Park - 8b - 147.

That census perhaps preceded by a Davies marrying a Davies?
Marriages Sep 1890:
Davies, Emma - Liverpool - 8b - 15.
Davies, John - Liverpool - 8b - 15.

I do think this could be William Davies [AKA Murphy in 1901]:

Regarding his admittance to an industrial school in 1906, he might still be there in 1911. A free search on the National Archives site http://www.1911census.co.uk/ gave just 2 results as inmates in institutions 'close to home':
William Davies - YoB shewn as 1893 - District West Derby.

Dickiesam