Andrew Jameson's Fate

[Roy]

As a brand-new member (today--no member number yet), I could really use some advice on how to find out what happened to Andrew Jameson, Master Mariner, who appeared alive and well in the 1871 census. His wife Margaret (nee Howells) died in 1879 and is listed as widow of Andrew Jameson on her death certificate, so presumably he was dead by then. However, the only likely FreeBMD death entry lists an Andrew Jamison. I found out from the Liverpool Record Office that the exact date of this gent's death was 11 Feb 1872. I have been discouraged from purchasing the death certificate because he was a workhouse resident at time of death, his occupation was listed as 'pauper', and no family members are listed on the death certificate. So there is nothing really to tie Andrew Jamison workhouse resident with Andrew Jameson Master Mariner. However, from the lack of alternatives, it is quite likely that the Andrews are the same person. Any suggestions about how I could progress this? Many thanks in advance.
Roy

[dickiesam]

Hello Roy and welcome!
Since Andrew was a mariner there's a strong possibility he died at sea or abroad. Either way he won't be in the FreeBMD, Ancestry etc death lists which are transcribed from the GRO England and Wales BMD Indexes.

We need to search marine and consular deaths and to do that we really need a birth year. Where is he in the 1871? Can you post the census page reference for us?

Dickiesam

[Blue70]

RG number: RG10 Piece: 3773 Folio: 14 Page: 21

Address: Key Street Court, Liverpool

JAMESON, Andrew Head M 45 1826 Master Mariner (Unemployed) Scotland
JAMESON, Margaret Wife F 43 1828 Wales
JAMESON, William J Son M 21 1850 Blockmaker (Unemployed) Northumberland
JAMESON, Dennis J Son M 14 1857 Lancashire
JAMESON, Magnus Son M 11 1860 Lancashire
JAMESON, Andrew Son M 7 1864 Lancashire

I think the death entry for Andrew Jamison in 1872 will be him.


Blue

[Roy]

Hello Roy and welcome!
Since Andrew was a mariner there's a strong possibility he died at sea or abroad. Either way he won't be in the FreeBMD, Ancestry etc death lists which are transcribed from the GRO England and Wales BMD Indexes.

We need to search marine and consular deaths and to do that we really need a birth year. Where is he in the 1871? Can you post the census page reference for us?

Dickiesam

Hi. Thanks for the help. Census ref is:
RG number: RG10 Piece: 3773 Folio: 14 Page: 21
Address: Key Street Court, Liverpool

I have his birthdate as 10 Oct 1825 in Tingwall, Shetlands. He was listed as unemployed in the 1871 census. I suspect he might have died of typhus in the following year in the workhouse (per LRO), but cannot confirm this.

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

I notice that his status is unemployed, so maybe he was ill and the reason he entered the workhouse was for medical care. His admission to the workhouse should be documented at the Record Office which might give you some clues, hopefully including his address on admission and next of kin.

[Hilary]

It looks to me that if he was a Master Mariner which implies he had a Master's certificate he had fallen on hard times. They're living in a court house he is unemployed as is his son.

The 1861 census shows them at 10 Hawkestone Street Toxteth Park - there he's just listed as a mariner.

Isn't there a way you can find out about Master Mariners? I'm sure I've read it somewhere but not sure where?

Hilary
Ed Officer

[jan44]

This site might help,

It might be a case of having to go to TNA.

http://www.mariners-l.co.uk/UKMasters.html

Jan

[dickiesam]

Having now seen where he was living in 1871, 2 House, 4 Court, Key Street, it was not the most salubrious of addresses for a Master Mariner. It is possible he had been unemployed for quite a while, perhaps through ill-health.

I am tending to agree with MaryA that it is possible he entered the Toxteth Park workhouse for treatment. Not 100% sure about Toxteth in the early 1870s but many workhouses had infirmaries attached [the NHS of the time]. I believe the one that was attached to Toxteth became Smithdown Road Hospital and then, later, Sefton General Hospital.

From... http://www.liverpool.gov.uk/Images/tcm21-33457.pdf
The records of the institution are catalogued with the records of Sefton General Hospital (ref. 614 SEF). These include admission and discharge registers (1860-1869) and creed registers (1882-1954).

Edited to add: Andrew Jameson [+ variants] isn't listed in Marine and Consular reported deaths 1871 - 1881.

Dickiesam

[Roy]

Thanks for the info. Unfortunately, he would have been admitted between 1871 and early 1872. The admission and discharge registers for the Toxteth Park workhouse don't seem to cover this period. Is there any chance he could have been admitted to a different workhouse, or were the workhouses strictly a function of where a person lived? Also, I can find almost no online burial records that might tell me where he was buried. Am I looking in the wrong places, or is a trip to the Liverpool Record Office necessary for this research?

[Hilary]

In your first post you say

I found out from the Liverpool Record Office that the exact date of this gent's death was 11 Feb 1872. I have been discouraged from purchasing the death certificate because he was a workhouse resident at time of death, his occupation was listed as 'pauper', and no family members are listed on the death certificate.

Did they not tell you which workhouse? If he was in Toxteth Workhouse which apparently the Record Office hold the records how can they tell you all this if there are no records for that time?

From Dickiesam's post

From... http://www.liverpool.gov.uk/Images/tcm21-33457.pdf
The records of the institution are catalogued with the records of Sefton General Hospital (ref. 614 SEF). These include admission and discharge registers (1860-1869) and creed registers (1882-1954).

Do you see what I mean?

I'm puzzled about this? I'm surprised Liverpool Record Office ploughed through all their records to find this particular death with just a quarter and a year to go on. It wasn't Liverpool REgister Office by any chance? If it was I think you do need the certificate to find out which workhouse it was.

Hilary
Ed Officer

[Roy]

It was indeed the Liverpool Register Office, not the Record Office. I had requested on line to purchase the death certificate, but Ronnie called me and said he didn't think it was the right person from the data I submitted. He also said that the workhouse name was not listed. He did give me the exact date of death, which was 11 Feb 1872. If the workhouse wasn't listed, the occupation was listed as pauper, and no relatives were mentioned on the death certificate, I didn't see the point of purchasing it.

[dickiesam]

Hi Roy,
The death cert has to show the address of the place of death. If it was an institution of some sort the address will be something like 144A Brownlow Hill or 42 Belmont Road. It was the practice not to put the name of the institution on the cert. The Toxteth workhouse and infirmary would have been shown simply as a 'premises' number in Smithdown Road and not specifically named.

You should purchase the cert because the person who notified the registrar will be named together with their relationship and address.

Dickiesam

[Roy]

OK. Thanks for that. I'll reorder the death certificate. If it does turn out to be the Toxteth Park workhouse, and no records are available from the 1872 period (as appears to be the case), is the next step to look for burial records in the Liverpool Register Office, or are there any other options?

[dickiesam]

Hi Roy,
If that cert turns out to be the right one there are folk here who will tell you the most likely cemeteries for his burial.

EDIT to add: If this is the correct Andrew, as he is described as a pauper it is quite possible he would be buried in an unmarked grave.

DS

[Katie]

Key Street was off Tithebarn Street so the likely Workhouse would be Liverpool I am at Liverpool now I will do a quick look up

[Katie]

LIverpool Workhouse 353 SEL 19/28

9th February 1872

Andrew Jameson 47 2/4 Key Street Protestant admitted with Fever
died 11 February 1872

Also admitted with him was Christina aged 19 she was discharged 5th March 1872

John Aged 15 he was discharged 7th March 1872
and Magness? aged 12 discharged on 5th March 1872

There was a small pox epidemic in Liverpool at this time and they even opned a fever hospital in the Scotland Road Area

Welcome to our Society

[Roy]

That's very kind of you, Katie. Thanks.

[MaryA]

You might find that somebody else is researching this person - looking for the burial place.

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.ph ... msg3643407

[Roy]

I'm afraid I inadvertently triggered this. A neighbour has been researching his family for years in the Sunderland area. He said he had a contact who had access to burial records, and would check with her about Andrew Jameson's burial place. Little did I realise it would create a loop back to here. Sorry for any confusion!

[MaryA]

We do not encourage cross posting with other forums as it duplicates a lot of research already done. As you saw on the Rootschat forum they were beginning to go along the same tracks and we had already spent time covering here.

If you had checked the National Burial Index you would see that although there are many entries for Lancashire, there are none for Liverpool, however if you check our Society's main page - http://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/ or click the globe at the top of this page, you will see that there are several CD's for sale covering a number of churchyards/cemeteries in the Liverpool area, some others being currently in hand as and when work on them is complete these will also be for sale.