Harcourt /Smith family

Post by **Ladydi** » 10 Jan 2011 00:19

I am trying to trace my Grandfather Ebenezer James Harcourt,I have his marriage certificate which states that he was born in St. Helen's in 1878,
The only registration of the birth is Ebenezer James Smith, with his father being listed As Alfred Ebenezer (this is correct) Smith, their address at the time was listed as 33 Stanhope St., St. Helens, I have found them on the 1881 Census under the name of Smith in Scotland, and after that no trace until I find Ebenezer James on the 1901 Census with his wife Maud back in St. Helen's.
I live in the States so am unable to visit any of the local libraries so any help you can give me would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Margaret

Post by **MaryA** » 10 Jan 2011 10:28

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Please give the full details from the 1881 Scotland census that you have found them on as I don't see a young Ebenezer with father Alfred.

Have you ascertained why he is known by the name Harcourt if he was registered with the name Smith? and when did this change take place? Who registered the birth and what was his mother's name?

Are there any other clues from the marriage certificate? ie where did it take place, what is the name given for his father and who were the witnesses?

We like to see all of the picture when we try to help.

Post by **Ladydi** » 10 Jan 2011 11:33

Hi thanks for replying, first of all I made a mistake they were on the 1881 England census, with the birth place for Alfred E being listed as Scotland.
From the marriage certificate the details I have are:
Ebenezer James Harcourt married Maud Amelia Gale on the 21st September 1900 at St. Philip's Church, in the parish of St. Philip, Sheffield, his father was listed was Alfred Ebenezer Harcourt (Deceased) his profession was listed as Compositor. The witness's were Maud Shepherd and Annie Auty.
On the birth certificate I have Ebenezer James born 24th April 1878, his father listed as Alfred Ebenezer Smith, his mother Elise Smith formerly Collins his father was listed as Compositor, and his mother was the one who registered the birth, the address at the time was given as 33 Stanhope St, St. Helen's
As to the name change I have no idea why this was,
this is why I am hoping you can help.
Thanks again
Margaret

Post by **MaryA** » 10 Jan 2011 12:30

I am going to give the 1881 census to assist others

11 Hampden Grove, Ardwick, Manchester
Alfred E Smith Head M 27 Printer Compositor Scotland
Elise Wife M 23 Student of Medicine Lancashire Liverpool
Selina Makin Servant Unm 20 General Servant Lancashire Manchester
Alfred T? Smith Son 4 Scholar Lancashire Manchester
Ebenr J Smith son 2 Lancashire St Helens
Frederick H C Smith son 1 Lancashire St Helens
RG11; Piece: 3897; Folio: 46; Page: 26

Just a thought that the occupation of "Student of Medicine" appears as if it might have followed on from the line above, so belonging to Alfred rather than his wife.

Post by **MaryA** » 10 Jan 2011 14:20

I have found them in 1901, I think, not in St Helens, but still in Sheffield
83 Watery Lane, Sheffield
James Harcourt Head M 22 Milk Seller Lancashire St Helens
Maude Wife M 18 Belfast Ireland
RG13; Piece: 4366; Folio: 12; Page: 15.

and then they seem to have moved over to Bradford with children Bertie, Vernon, Lily, and Maud.

Post by **MaryA** » 10 Jan 2011 15:12

Out of curiosity I wondered what the HC stood for in Frederick's name.

I found the entry on the LancashireBMD site, 1879 Frederick HC Smith, ST Helens, Ref SH/129/87 but the entry I find for Q4 1879 Prescot 8b 722 is for Friederic Henri C Smith.

Post by **Hilary** » 10 Jan 2011 16:20

This could be Alfred's marriage

www.lancashirebmd.org.uk

Alfred Smith married Elizabeth Collins St Mark Hulme Manchester in 1876

Hilary
Ed Officer

Post by **MaryA** » 10 Jan 2011 19:25

I was hoping for a previous marriage for Elise/Elizabeth bringing in the surname Harcourt but she seems to be rather young for that, maybe a second marriage later - if we could but find them afterwards.

Post by **Hilary** » 10 Jan 2011 19:35

In your first post you state

I have his marriage certificate which states that he was born in St. Helen's in 1878

I am puzzled by this statement as English marriage certificates do not give places of birth. Do you mean his address was given as St Helens?

Hilary
Ed Officer

Post by **Ladydi** » 10 Jan 2011 21:05

MaryA wrote:I have found them in 1901, I think, not in St Helens, but still in Sheffield
83 Watery Lane, Sheffield
James Harcourt Head M 22 Milk Seller Lancashire St Helens
Maude Wife M 18 Belfast Ireland
RG13; Piece: 4366; Folio: 12; Page: 15.

and then they seem to have moved over to Bradford with children Bertie, Vernon, Lily, and Maud.

Yes this is the famiy, Vernon was my father and he was born in Sheffield, but then moved to Bradford, I am not sure what James's occupation was in Bradford, but his wife's family owned I believe a herbalist shop and a shoe repair shop.

Thanks

Post by **Ladydi** » 10 Jan 2011 21:06

MaryA wrote:Out of curiosity I wondered what the HC stood for in Frederick's name.

I found the entry on the LancashireBMD site, 1879 Frederick HC Smith, ST Helens, Ref SH/129/87 but the entry I find for Q4 1879 Prescot 8b 722 is for Friederic Henri C Smith.

Yes this is the problem, the family is all listed with the surname of Smith, so am trying to find out why the name change.
Thanks

Post by **Ladydi** » 10 Jan 2011 21:11

Education Officer wrote:In your first post you state

I have his marriage certificate which states that he was born in St. Helen's in 1878

I am puzzled by this statement as English marriage certificates do not give places of birth. Do you mean his address was given as St Helens?

Hilary
Ed Officer

You are quite right, the birth certificate does not list the birth place, so am assuming I found the information elsewhere, I believe it was from the 1901 census.
Thanks

Post by **Ladydi** » 10 Jan 2011 21:15

MaryA wrote:I was hoping for a previous marriage for Elise/Elizabeth bringing in the surname Harcourt but she seems to be rather young for that, maybe a second marriage later - if we could but find them afterwards.

This is what I was hoping for as well, but it would be strange for her to have married an Albert Ebenezer Smith and also an Albert Ebenezer Harcourt,
I cannot find them on the 1891 census so am wondering if maybe he was in trouble with the law, she was not married and just assumed the name of Smith until he came back and they were married.
There are all sorts of possibilities and I am not sure where to look now, I seem to have exhausted all the resources I have from here.
Thanks

Post by **MaryA** » 11 Jan 2011 10:06

To keep this straight - we have no evidence, except from the name given on Ebenezer James's marriage certificate, given by EJ, of his father's name being Harcourt.

From the census we have, albeit only the one, plus the suspected birth entries of the two brothers, the name of the father is Alfred Ebenezer Smith. Harcourt may well have been assumed only by the son Ebenezer James/James Ebenezer - and looking at the 1901 and 1911 censuses he has changed his name from the less common Ebenezer to the more common James!

Do you follow my thinking? It may be that EJ/JE has the reason for changing his name, rather than Albert Ebenezer.

Looking at newspapers now to see if anything crops up there.

Edited to amend typo in name

Post by **Ladydi** » 11 Jan 2011 11:06

I understand and agree with your thinking, I don't know what is wrong with me his father's name is Alfred not Albert, I think I am looking at so many names and puzzles I am getting confused,
Thanks