Relationship confusion. Can someone help?

[dlh1]

Hi all. I know I'm always asking for help on this forum but I am learning a lot myself along the way so hopefully I will be able to help someone else in the future. But here's my question. I've kinda come to a 'brickwall'

Ann Draper and James Nolan had a child called Henry Nolan in 1893. Child was registered as well as baptised and the father and mothers name appear on both.

I can't seem to find a marriage entry for this couple.

Secondly, Ann Draper had a child in 1898 called Bernard as well as a child in 1904 called Charles. These children were baptised but their births were not registered.

During all these years I have only ever found Ann Draper on 1 census, that being 1911 where she is living with Bernard and Charles in Tenterden Street.

Henry Nolan and Bernard and Charles Draper were all baptised in Our lady of Reconciliation Church on Eldon Street.

I'm trying to find out what may have happened to James Nolan.

Also, on Bernards baptism record his father is also listed as Bernard Draper and mother is listed as Ann Hough.

To confuse things further, my great uncle mention something about the name Shiels being attached to her name. Well there's also an Ellen Draper who's mothers maiden name was Sheils born in 1900 and also baptised in Our Lady Reconciliation.

So I know I may be confusing here, but I am willing to pay for someone to help me research this family and find out exactly what's going on. Is it possible that Ann Draper is a bit of a womanizer or just had a few unfortunate events in her life. I'm not 100% sure but would love for someone to help me untangle this web.

Many thanks,

p.s the baptisms were all found on www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk website which I have paid for. Amazing website!!!

[dlh1]

James Nolan was deceased according to Henry Nolans marriage cert in 1916. Ann Draper was alive in 1920 according to Bernard Drapers military records.

[dlh1]

Just a thought. Does Liverpool have records of schools? Perhaps I would be able to find the children on school attendance lists and there might be information regarding their parents? It would at least give me more info regarding the children.

Does Liverpool record office hold such documents?

Thanks,

[dickiesam]

Hi,
A couple of questions..
Can you put ages or YoBs to Ann and James? Very difficult to track them in censuses otherwise.

What number in Tenterden Street is Ann at in the 1911?

And what was James Nolan's occupation and the family address on Henry Nolan's 1893 birth cert?

Dickiesam

[CaroleW]

Hi

What is her marital status on the 1911

Is it possible that Ann Draper is a bit of a womanizer

I think you may mean a man-eater?

[CaroleW]

There is this 1901 entry indexed as DREAPER - both b Liverpool - but no son Bernard

Ann Draper 50 widow - cotton sorter
Henry Draper 7
RG13 Piece 3411 Folio 81 Page 22

Image does show 50 for Ann but that would mean she could not have had a child in 1904

[dickiesam]

Quote:
Is it possible that Ann Draper is a bit of a womanizer

I think you may mean a man-eater?

Sounds more like a simple soul who gave her heart [and more] to more than one man and paid the price for her 'kindness' in response to their promises.

Following on from Carole's observation...

Image does show 50 for Ann but that would mean she could not have had a child in 1904

Are you sure the Ann Drapers you have found giving birth from 1893 to 1904, are definitely all the same woman? Not being able to find her in 1901, I am beginning to have me doubts.

Dickiesam

[dlh1]

Thanks for your responses.

My great uncle said Henry Nolan had 3 half brothers, Bernard, Charles and also James Draper. I couldn't find anything about James Draper. For my uncle to remember James though I am guessing that he must have lived and not died as a child (if you get what I mean).

In the 1911 census it lists Ann Draper as 45, so born in 1866. She lived at 20 Tenterden Street.

On Henry John Nolans birth certificate it says that his father James Nolan is a Dock labourer and they lived at 18 Back Bond Street. I've also just come across an Ellen Draper born in 1900 who lived in 11 Bond Street. Her mother was also called Ann.

Thanks

[dlh1]

Carole, in 1911 Ann Drapers occupation was Raw Cotton Picker. so could there be a connection between the census you found and the census of 1911. Only thing is that Henry Nolan would be 8 in 1901 census as he was born 23.01.1893

[Katie]

Did the family stay around Our Lady's of Reconcillliation Parish if so the records for the school are at the Church. I am sure if you give them a ring they may let you go and look through them.

[dlh1]

Hi katie. I believe so. They were based on Back bond Street as well as bond street. I'll have to give them a ring and see what they say. I'm not sure what school records contain or what records were normally kept, so I'll have to take a look.

[Katie]

The records contain date of birth name surname address parents name what standard they were in etc. I looked at these records ages ago and I did ask Father Sibbert if he was going to put them in the archives, unfortunatly he died.

[dlh1]

I didn't realise these records contain such valuable information. That's a shame about Father Sibbert. If I get access to them I will see if there's any way of archiving them. I'm looking to work on a project like this. I live in liverpool and work in Birmingham so I waste 4 hours a day sat on a train doing nothing when I could be doing something useful haha

[dickiesam]

Hi Dlh1,
Regarding that Ann and Henry in 1901, it is worth remembering that census ages can be out by a number of years. The year of birth is calculated from the age given at the enumeration when the pages are being transcribed for our benfit. Adults in particular could give an age that was out by several years, both accidentally and deliberately.

Likewise, a woman who was a single parent of one or more children might describe herself as a widow for a number of reasons, especially respectability. I have come across that on several occasions.

I have scoured the birth index for a candidate for James Draper, another 1/2 brother, without seeing a good fit. So I think he may not have been registered or was under yet another surname.

It appears to me that it is probable that Ann had children by more than one man and was not married to any of them. It still happens today. You only have to suffer the Jeremy Kyle show a couple of times to know that. So my wife tells me!

Dickiesam

[dlh1]

I've just found something quite interesting.

1891 Census. - 14 Back Bond Street
Ann Dreaper - b.1867 - Charwoman, widow
John Dreaper - b.1886
James Dreaper - b.1884

Could this be the Ann Draper I'm looking for. If we look at the 1911 census, the age would be correct. The son James in the 1891 census could be the James Draper my great uncle mentioned?

[Katie]

Keep whittling away and the answers will surely pop up!

[dlh1]

I will! It's just this pesky 1901 census. I can't find them anywhere. I think you must be right about the workhouse. We'll soon see.

[colette]

Hi all

ok lets start with Ann

Born Ann Hough 1859 bap St Peter 1860

Father William Hough b Liverpool a Labourer c 1806
Mother Martha Ainscow b either Lpool or Chester c 1814-1819

Marriage William Hough - Martha Ainscow St Peter 1838..

1841 Love Lane Lpool
William Hough age 35 Warehouse Man born Lancs
Martha Hough age 25 not born in County
Son William Hough age 2 b Lancs
Son John Hough age 3 months b Lancs

1851 Charter St Lpool

William Hough age 45 Labourer b Lpool
Martha Hough age 37 b Lpool
Son William age 10 b Lpool
Son John age 9 b Lpool
Dau Martha age 2 b Lpool


1861 29 Hornby St Lpool

Martha Hough age 42 Widow Mangle Keeper b Chester
Dau Martha age 12 b Lpool
Dau Mary Ellen age 9 b Lpool
Dau Betsy age 4 b Lpool
Dau ANN age 1 and half b Lpool

bit stuck here as i cant see Ann or her mother or sisters in 1871

nor can i see her in 1881.

Marriage 1885 St Alban James Draper to Ann Huff (Hough)

1891 14 Back Bond St Lpool
Ann Draper age 34 b Lpool Widow
Son John age 5 b Lpool
Son James age 7 b Lpool

possible death for James Deaths Dec 1888

Draper James 27 Liverpool 8b 88


It looks to me that she met a James Nolan but never married him, had Henry and shes took James's name for the child.

Regarding Bernard Draper and the father being down as a Bernard i think she told a few porkies..

So all in all it looks like Ann had 5 children all boys

There is a marriage for a Samuel Lloyd to a Martha Hough 1867 St Alban..

Can't find them in 1871 i was thinking that it could be Ann's mum remarrying or maybe her sister Martha.

Can anyone add anything to this maybe by finding Ann in 1871 & 1881


xxxxxxxxx

[Katie]

Good work Collette

[dlh1]

Great work here!!

The only other thing is that 1891 and 1911 census says she is born in around 1866. The marriage of James Draper and Ann Huff in 1885 says she is 19 years old, which would also make her d.o.b around 1866.

So she may have married a James Draper, he then died,
Then she had Henry Nolan
And then the children following this were the Drapers.
I need to look at the workhouse registers and also the school registers for the children. I will also look for the marriage register for Bernard Draper to Ann Roberts in 1933 and see if his fathers name is mentioned.