William Christian and ELiza McLean

[Cathy]

Hi - I am looking for any information on a William Christian(b? d?) and/or an Eliza McLean(b 1841 Harrowgate Yorkshire d?). They had a son William Robert Christian who was born in Liverpool 1878 and then William sr. disappeared on me. ELiza was listed as his aunt living in Everton in 1881 and then as Eliza Christian and his mother by 1901. On William jrs birth certificate she is his mother. I am totally lost on William Sr and Eliza and as they are great greats I sure would appreciate all help I can get.
Tx Cathy

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum. I'm going to give the census entries for 1881 and 1891 to assist anybody else helping to search. Can you please give the reference for the 1901 census.

Could you also give the full details from William's birth and marriage certificates.

1881
16 Knowsley Street, Everton
Eliza McLean Head W 36 Dressmaker Yorks Harrogate
William R Christian Nephew 3 Lancs Liverpool
William May Boarder Unm 24 Librarian " "
/
Grace Williams Lodger W 53 Charwoman " "
Mary Jones " Unm 59 Laundress Wales Llandudno
RG11; Piece: 3666; Folio: 116; Page: 10

1891
4 Rothwell Street, Everton
Eliza Christian Head Wid 49 Dressmaker Harrogate Yorkshire
William " Son 13 Shopboy Liverpool
Grace Williams Aunt Wid 66 On the Parish "
Jane McTagat Boarder Wid 74 " "
William " " " 46 "
RG12; Piece: 2950; Folio 79; Page 39

[MaryA]

I know you have his birth certificate but do you also have his baptism? It is listed on the Record Search Pilot site - birth 10 March 1878 and baptism 8 September, 1878, parents William Christian and mother Eliza.

The references are
Indexing Project (Batch) Number C03735-8
System Origin - England-EASy
Source Film Number - 93899
Reference Number - yr 1878-1879 p3

Unfortunately this doesn't give the church the baptism took place, perhaps it doesn't matter but if you were interested you could write to the Latter Day Saints and see if you get a good response - no guarantees since this sort of question has been asked before without a satisfactory response.

[Cathy]

Thanks Mary A I did not have a baptism so I will look at that for sure
The birth cert for William Robert goes like this

1878 birth in Everton County Lancaster

1 Tenth March 1878 16 Knowsley Street
2 William Robert
3 boy
4 Father - William Christian
5. Mother - Eliza Christian formerly McLean
6 Fathers occupation - bookkeeper


the 1901 Wales census RG13 Piece 5289 Folio 20 Pg 29

W. Robert Christian
head
married
23
painter/paper hanger
worker
b Lancs Liverpoole
speaks both English and Welsh

Fanny Ethel Christian
wife
married
22
b Carnavon, Llanrwst
speaks both

Elsie Audrey Christian - my grandmother
Daur
1900
b Denbigh Colwyn

Eliza Christian
60
widow
b 1841
Fem
b Harrowgate, Yorkshire England

William Robert married Fanny Ethel Davies in 1916 - after about 11 children. I also have not been able to positively follow Fanny back though her fathers name is Thomas. I figured I would do one at a time. I have been looking forseveral years but unless I hop a plane I can't visit the registry centres and don't know where to start anyway.

Their marriage cert says 13th Jan 1916
William Robert Christian 38 years bachelor house painter 4 house 2 Court Rothwell Street Everton father - William Christian (deceased) - corporation librarian

Frances Ethell Davies 37 yrs spinster Laundress 14 Whitford Street West Derby f- Thomas Davies (deceased) - marine engineer merchant service

married in registrars office

[simone]

Hi

You would think that if William is b 1878 and his mum is a widow in 1881 then there would be a death for dad between these dates.

I can only see 1 that may fit. Sep q 1879
William Christian age 67, West Derby

I've just tracked this chap back through the census and he was a Painter/Artist, married to Elizabeth from Shropshire.

However, given the Yorkshire connection. decided to look there. There is a death

Deaths Mar q 1881
Christian William Henry 35 Leeds 9b 304

In 1871( not sure if him)

RG10; Piece: 4051; Folio: 139; Page: 10
lodger in Manchester
Will Hy Christian 29 Bookeeper b Barnsley


maybe just coincidental

Simone x

[Tina]

Hi Mary & Simone, great findings, you have both been busy!
Welcome aboard Cathy.
My grandees didn't marry until 1916 after some of their children were born.
When I asked the question on another forum, a military boffin said "so many men had died in the first 2yrs of WW1, the call up was extended to older men, if they were not married & died, their common law wife would not get anything in the way of a widows pension from the government, 1916 saw a surge in marriages"
I don't know if it's the case with our families but it could well be??

Tina

[simone]

Hiya Tina

You looking forward to a nice warm christmas better than the snow and frost here

Wonder if William and Eliza never actually married, she is using her maiden nmae in 1881

Cathy.. who were the witnesses at William anfd Fanny's marriage

Simone x

[Tina]

Yo Simmo
Luv Chrimbo downunder!!
The only thing I miss is a Grotto

It's a puzzle for sure regarding Eliza and her surnames and her
relationship to William jnr.
I liked your bookkeeper find.

In the next census taken after 1901 there is
Wm Robt Christian 33, Fanny 31, Wm Thos 9, Sarah Ellen 8, Margaret 5, Albert Edwd 2 all living in Conway, Carnv.

Tina

[simone]

I can't find him after 1871 he's in Manchester then so could have easily moved up to Liverpool.. also they may have known each other already if both from Yorkshire must have gone bcak to Yorkshire though for death to be him... confusing very coincidental though that he turned out to be a bookeeper in 1871

there is another one b 1847, but can track him

it's proving this bookeeper chap is him though isn't it

Simone x

[Cathy]

Thanks Simone - being from oversees - how far away from Everton is Leeds? The fact that he is a bookkeeper is interesting - is it and the date and the name enough to buy a cert. I am assuming he and Eliza never really married but I will keep looking for a marriage.
Cathy

[MaryA]

The thing that hits me in the eye in the 1881 census is the occupation of William May Librarian. This is not a common occupation and seems too coincidental as the occupation of the father.

Don't know where the surname Christian came from but maybe I just have a suspicious mind and wonder if there was any hanky panky between Eliza and the lodger - Registrar asks "what is Christian name?" - William and the first surname that comes to mind is "Christian" because it's in her mind .....

Anybody else have any thoughts on this?

[simone]

Hmm yes Mary I am suspicious about that too

and then you also think could they have worked together I'm just suspicious that she uses maiden name in 1881


think about 70 miles between Leeds and liverpool

a bit chancey getting the cert at the mo I think... need something more concrete

Simone x

[Cathy]

I actually thought that too, possibly the registrar got a bit carried away with the Christian bit - I do not expect we will know any time soon. So I will look at William May again. Possibly there is a marriage. Maybe he had a will. Hmm Thanks all

[simone]

Hi

I reckon William May was born Soloman William May. Mar q 1857. He is son of Thomas May and Jane Wilson who married at St Mary the Virgin, West Derby in 1855.

Thomas was a bookbinder and later a stationer. By 1901 he is lodging in Edgehill, still a Stationer
RG13; Piece: 3490; Folio: 8; Page: 7

William is living in Birkenhead with his family

RG13; Piece: 3395; Folio: 159; Page: 10.

WIlliam May 44 Bookbinder and librarian
Fannie May 44 b Liverpool
Percy M May 14 b Birkenhead
Emily May 33 sister b Liverpool

1891 in Birkenhead
RG12; Piece: 2889; Folio 94; Page 7
William May 34 librarian
Fanny May 32
Percy Moreland May 5

so what do you reckon? by 1891 married and left Eliza and possibly his son William?

Simone x

[simone]

Eliza was well into her 30's when she had William.. I can't trace anyone who looks like her on previous census I know William jnr's birth says formerly McLean but do you reckon she could have been married twice

[Tina]

Hi girls
I agree about Wm the lodger & his occupationof Librarian.
Something fishy!
I'm wondering if the auntie Grace Williams holds a clue?

Tina

[simone]

Hi Tina

are you psychic was wondering about her too because coincidentally Thomas May is lodging with Williams family in 1901 wonder if ther are connected to Aunt Grace. Did he have some connection/know them already

RG13; Piece: 3490; Folio: 8; Page: 7
Alice Williams 40 b Liverpool
John Williams 19 b Manchester
Alice Williams 1 b Liverpool
Thomas May 67 b Liverpool
Arthur Bowen 24 b Liverpool
Thomas Rogers 19 Leeds, Yorkshire

and the coincidences go on:roll:
John Williams born In Manchester where Thomas the bookeeper was lodging

and the lodger from Yorkshire like Eliza, and where the bookeeper died

reckon they are coincidences alright but doesn't your mind run riot
read too may novels maybe

Simone x

[simone]

This may be worth looking at to see if it goes anywhere

Robert Christian has married Mary Williams,

1861
RG9; Piece: 2675; Folio: 18; Page: 29
Robert Christian 32
Mary Christian 33
Sarah Williams 66 mother in law widow
Elizabeth Hamond 37
Henry Hamond 10 nephew


his parents are living next door John and Esther/ Easter Christian.

looking back Robert has a brother William b c 1838.. can't find him on later census

not sure about Grace Williams yet.. couple of possibles, 1 in prison in Manchester..

she states she is a widow but can't see her married anywhere

sorry no time to post all go to go out now..

back later

clutching at straws now probably

Simone x

[simone]

Going round in circles

[Tina]

Join the club mate, me too!!

Tina