Question from Holland about Anna Maria Davis & Gabriel M

Post by **Jan Meijer** » 16 Nov 2010 18:43

My ancestor Gabriel Meijer/Meyer was born on 30 nov 1842 in Wateringen, Holland. He was a son of Pieter Meijer & Petronella Kouwenhoven.
About 1870 Gabriel married Anna Maria Davi(e)s from Liverpool. She was a daughter of Edward & Isalbella Davi(e)s. Probably they married in England but they started up their family in Holland. Anna Maria died there in the Hague on 19 Febr. 1929.
I am very interested in Anna Maria and her ancestors. Maybe there is also some information available about the marriage of Gabriel and Anna Maria.

I hope that someone can help me.

best regards from Holland,
Jan Meijer

Post by **MaryA** » 17 Nov 2010 14:34

Hi and welcome to the forum.

I'm having difficulty finding a marriage for Gabriel and Anna Maria (possibly she was called this in Holland as being a more usual form, she may have been Mary Ann in England), but I'd hoped for something to have shown up with Gabriel's name to enlighten us.

Do you have any idea of her year of birth? I was working on the assumption that she may have been of a similar age to her husband and searched for a marriage for her parents before that date. So far the only one I have been able to find is

6th July, 1835 St Nicholas, Liverpool
Edward Davies - Police Officer of Liverpool
Isabella Cowell - Spinster of Liverpool

and a possible child
Baptisms: 27 May 1844 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Isabella Davies - Child of Edward Davies & Isabella
Abode: High St, Edge Hill
Occupation: Engineer

(the above from the Online Parish Clerk site)
and from the Familysearch (Beta) site

Elizabeth Davies
Baptism 7 August 1837 St. Peters, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Elenor Davies
Baptism 23 January 1842 St. Peters, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Children of Edward Davies and Isabella

1841 - High Street, Walton on the Hill, West Derby, Lancashire
Edward Davies 35 Engineer No
Isabella Davies 25 No
Elizabeth 3 Yes
Isabella 1 Yes
Ellen Cowell 30 F.S. No
HO107; Piece 520; Book: 3; Civil Parish: Walton On The Hill; County: Lancashire; Enumeration District: 18; Folio: 68; Page: 7; Line: 1

The link between Isabella's maiden name and her possible sister makes me think this is the same family, despite the change in occupation of Edward.

I have a possible family in 1851
21 Blucher Street, West Derby, Lancashire
Isabella Davies Head Widow 42 Seamstress Isle of Man
Elizabeth daur 14 Scholar Liverpool, Lancashire
Ellen daur 9 Scholar West Derby, Lancashire
Isabella daur 6 " " "
HO107; Piece: 2192; Folio: 478; Page: 8

and in 1861, back in 33 High Street, West Derby
John Walker Head M 57 Plasterer West Derby Lancashire
Elizabeth Wife M 58 Isle of Man
John son Unm 17 Plasterer Edge Hill Liverpool
Isabella Davies Lodger Wid 53 Isle of Man
Ellen daur Unm 19 Servant Edge Hill, Liverpool
Isabella daur 16 Dressmaker " "
RG9; Piece: 2729; Folio: 61; Page: 29

The older members and young Isabella are still together in 1871, pinning down Isabella and Elizabeth's birthplace as Castletown, Isle of Man.

Unfortunately in all of this I haven't been able to find an Anna Maria or similar name, so I have absolutely no evidence that this could be your family.

Can you tell us how you know what her parents names are and if there are any other clues anywhere.

Post by **Jan Meijer** » 17 Nov 2010 15:15

Hello Mary,

many thanks for your reply. On the death certificate of Anna Maria Davi(e)s (19-02-1929 day of death: 17-02-1929) is stated that she was 82 yrs old. So she must have been born in 1846 or the beginning of 1847. In the death certificate she is called daughter of Edward Davies and Isabella... (surname unknown) You might be right that her Christian name will be different in England and the name Ann is quite acceptable, but in fact I donot know for sure. It was even quite a puzzle to figure out her surname because in Dutch registers it was written in several ways (phonatically)

I hope that this additional info may help you.

best regards and sorry for my bad English
Jan Meijer, The Hague, Netherlands

Post by **simone** » 17 Nov 2010 16:51

Hi and Welcome Jan

wonder if she could have been born Hannah? there is a Hannah Davies born West Derby in both 1846 & 47.

Simone x

Post by **Jan Meijer** » 17 Nov 2010 17:12

Hi Simone,

The only information I have from her death certificate is that Anna Maria was from Liverpool, died in 1929 and was 82 yrs old. Even in Holland we learned that in the 19th century, Liverpool's industries atracted many workers from all over England, Scotland, Ireland etc. so Liverpool may not be her place of birth. However, for the moment I believe that she was born and raisen in L'pool by her parents Edward & Isabella Davies.

thanks and best regards from Holland,
Jan Meijer

Post by **simone** » 17 Nov 2010 19:26

Hi Jan

I take you don't know of any brothers and sisters, even if only by name

There is an Isabella Davies in 1851 in Liverpool, a widow, her eldest child is called Edward

and she has a daughter Ann the right age..
HO107; Piece: 2180; Folio: 547; Page: 50
17 Thomas St
Isabella Davies 36 Pauper
Edward Davies 12
Isabella Davies 8
Ann Davies 4
John Davies 1

need to investigate more

Simone x

Post by **simone** » 17 Nov 2010 19:49

this lady has married for a 2nd time in 1857
Lancs Bmd
DAVIES * Isabella FLAHERTY Hugh Liverpool, Our Lady & St. Nicholas & St. Anne L

her maiden name was Dixon... trying to find out if she married Edward Davies

can't find it yet

1861
20 Peters Lane
RG9; Piece: 2673; Folio: 30; Page: 56;
Name Age
Hugh Flaherty 40 b Ireland, mat maker
Isabella Flaherty 46 b Liverpool
Isabella Davies 19 Mat maker , step daughter
John Davies 10
Liverpool step son

no sign of daughter Ann

couple of possibles as servants in other houses

Simone x

Post by **simone** » 17 Nov 2010 19:56

possible marriage but wrong hubbies name, also don't know why she has 2 names

son Edward would have had to have been born before marriage though

Isabella Ayres
[Isabella Dixon]
Gender: Female
Father's name: William Dixon
Spouse's name: John Davies
Spouse's Father's Name: Thomas Davies
Marriage Date: 5 Apr 1841
Marriage Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

back to the drawing board

Post by **Jan Meijer** » 17 Nov 2010 19:59

Hi again Simone,

this is really exciting. Since 'my' Gabriel was a sailor it is very likely that he started up a relationship with a girl from downtown Liverpool. Your guess about Ann, daughter of widow Isabella, being a pauper might be quite right.

If you like I can send you a copy of Anna Maria's death certificate but I have no idea how I can do that on this forum...

best regards,
Jan Meijer

Post by **simone** » 17 Nov 2010 20:12

would help if I could find this family in 1841,

might then be able to confirm dad's name

perhaps someone else could have a look.. they may be able to see what I can't

you can post images on here but I am not an expert. I'm sure one of the team will advise

Simone x

Post by **MaryA** » 17 Nov 2010 20:17

I did look at that family and think that the husband was Robert, not sure now but I'm fairly certain I discarded them because he was wrong.

Instructions here how to show a photograph in your post, however, please don't post the whole certificate as it should really only show the portion that help is needed for, so crop it to the important area only.

Post by **MaryA** » 17 Nov 2010 20:53

Can't now find the family I linked them to in 1841.

How about passenger lists? Can anybody check on them, presumably even if he worked his way, she should have been a passenger and maybe the name might be more likely to be spelled correctly than on a census.

PS No need to apologise for your English Jan, it's very good.

Post by **MaryA** » 17 Nov 2010 21:04

Are you connected to Petra Schoenmaker?

Post by **simone** » 17 Nov 2010 22:09

MaryA wrote:Can't now find the family I linked them to in 1841.

no I can't see them Mary.. must be going mad... they got to be somewhere

Simone x

Post by **Jan Meijer** » 18 Nov 2010 21:19

MaryA wrote:Are you connected to Petra Schoenmaker?

I am not connected to Petra Schoenmaker but I've seen her name on various genealogy-sites in Holland...

Post by **MaryA** » 19 Nov 2010 09:13

Although she doesn't seem to have much more information than you about Anna Maria, she seems to be researching the same line, perhaps you should make contact.

Post by **Jan Meijer** » 21 Nov 2010 12:05

Dear all,

maybe the puzzle can be solved better if I mention the children of Gabriel Meijer & Anna Maria Davies. Some christian names can be connected to Meijer-ancestors. In bold are the chrsitian names that are unknown within the Meyer family and maybe they are linked to Davies relatives.
Furthermore:
-Anna Maria didnot attend school because on various certifcates is noted that she could not read or right so this may exclude some Davies people who had better jobs in those days.
-The surname may be Davis instead of Davies

Here are her kids:
1. NN Meijer born dead 4.8.1870
2. Pieter Herbertus Meijer born 7.9.1871
3. Johannes Meijer born 28.4.1873
4. Petronella Meijer born 21.6.1875
5. Elisabeth Meijer born 5.4.1877
6. Hendricus Meijer born 1.1.1879
7. Magdalena Wilhelmina Meijer born 13.9.1880
8. Petrus Meijer born 2.4.1882
9. Engelina Meijer born 13.5.1883
10. Gabriel Meijer born 4.9.1884

Maybe this will be of any help. Thanks again for all your work.

best regards
Jan

Post by **MaryA** » 21 Nov 2010 20:55

I would be glad if anybody could check outgoing passenger lists please. Anybody with a FMP subs? Looking to see if two individuals travelled or a married couple.

Post by **Jan Meijer** » 21 Nov 2010 21:03

could not read or right.... =could not read or write... sorry

Post by **Hilary** » 21 Nov 2010 21:42

Sorry. Outgoing passenger lists don't start until 1890.

Hilary
Ed Officer