Hi Vanessa
Who witnessed son Franks marriage?
simone x
Joseph Davies of Liverpool
MEMBER 5977
Name Interests:-
Davidson, Rule, Jones, Rudd, Watson, Duncan Barker/Barkley, Brooker, Whatton, Bainbridge, James, Hodgson, Nixon.
Any census information within this post is Crown Copyright from http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
Name Interests:-
Davidson, Rule, Jones, Rudd, Watson, Duncan Barker/Barkley, Brooker, Whatton, Bainbridge, James, Hodgson, Nixon.
Any census information within this post is Crown Copyright from http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
Frank Davies married Mary Berry in 1918 at Droylsden. The witnesses were Ernest Barker and Harriet Dawson. Harriet Dawson was connected to Mary Berry. They were both living at the same address, 23 Fold Street, Droylsden. In 1911 Frank was living with his parents in Openshaw, Manchester and Mary Berry was also from outside the Doylsden parish, though the family did settle there.
In 1911 the children of Joseph and Catherine Davies were
Joseph, 23yrs.
Mary, 18yrs.
William, 13yrs.
Frank, 10yrs.
Susan, 8yrs.
All born Liverpool.
I spoke to Franks granddaughter and all that was known about the family was that Frank was born in Liverpool, thanks to his birth certificate. Unfortunately Franks son, Joseph, died in the 1980's aged 56yrs., his daughter, Winifred, died of senile dementia and another son died relatively young, all before we decided to look into the Davies family, so there's no one left to ask.
I spent today just looking at any Joseph Davies regardless of age in 1881, but nothing leapt out at me. I think I'm going to have to go through the census, I once found someone by doing that when they didn't appear in any of the census indexes, the handwriting had been so bad the surname couldn't be read properly.
Vanessa
In 1911 the children of Joseph and Catherine Davies were
Joseph, 23yrs.
Mary, 18yrs.
William, 13yrs.
Frank, 10yrs.
Susan, 8yrs.
All born Liverpool.
I spoke to Franks granddaughter and all that was known about the family was that Frank was born in Liverpool, thanks to his birth certificate. Unfortunately Franks son, Joseph, died in the 1980's aged 56yrs., his daughter, Winifred, died of senile dementia and another son died relatively young, all before we decided to look into the Davies family, so there's no one left to ask.
I spent today just looking at any Joseph Davies regardless of age in 1881, but nothing leapt out at me. I think I'm going to have to go through the census, I once found someone by doing that when they didn't appear in any of the census indexes, the handwriting had been so bad the surname couldn't be read properly.
Vanessa
Membership No. 7777
I have decided to look at the problem of Joseph Davies from a different angle and started to look at his wife, Catherine Neagle’s family in the hope that there may be a clue there. It has thrown up a mystery that might help, so here is what I have found so far.
John NEAGLE was born about 1835, in the census he gives his place of birth as Wexford, Ireland. On the 13th May 1860 he married Mary (Susannah) BOLD at St. Nicholas Roman Catholic Church, Liverpool, his occupation is a baker as is his father, John NEAGLE. Her family were Roman Catholics from Fazakerley.
In the 1861 census John and Mary NEAGLE are living with her parents along with their infant daughter, Elizabeth. There doesn’t appear to be any other NEAGLE family members in Liverpool in 1861, but in 1871 there is a Catherine NEAGLE, a widow aged 61yrs., born Ireland with a baker’s shop at 24 Bronte Street, Liverpool. It’s possible that Catherine is John’s mother as he names his second daughter, Catherine.
In 1881 Catherine NEAGLE has died and the shop has been taken over by a Michael NEAGLE as a provision shop, along with his wife, Catherine.
Michael NEAGLE is found in 1871 as a flour dealer in Bengal Street, Liverpool, he had married Kate (Catherine) FINNEY earlier in the year. He appears to be the Michael NEAGLE living as a boarder with John and Mary NEAGLE in 1891 and is possibly his brother and therefore the uncle of Catherine NEAGLE, wife of Joseph DAVIES
I have followed Michael NEAGLE and his wife Catherine through the census which has been difficult as their ages are not consistent, the only way I know that they are the right couple is that his wife was born in Cheadle, Staffordshire and variations of this place of birth appear on the census.
1871 Bengal Street, West Derby
Michael NEAGLE, 30yrs., flour dealer, born Ireland
Catherine, wife, 36yrs., born Staffordshire
1881 24 Bronte Street, Liverpool (occupied by Catherine Neagle as a bakers shop in 1871)
Michael NAGLE, 32yrs., provision dealer, born Ireland
Kate, wife, 27yrs., born Cheadle, Lancs.
1891 54 Greenside, West Derby, Liverpool (Parish of St. Jude)
John NEAGLE, 54yrs., groom, cardriver, born Wexford, Ireland
Mary, wife, 51yrs., born West Derby
John, son, 18yrs., mineral water bottler, born Liverpool
Alice, daughter, 12yrs., apprentice mantle maker, born Liverpool
Michael NEAGLE, boarder, married, 52yrs., groom cardriver, born Dublin, Ireland
Michael is married and I have found what looks like his wife in Wavertree
1891 Overton Road, Wavertree
House of James Harrison, timber merchant
Catherine NEAGLE, widow, 49yrs., cook, born Cheadle Staffs. She says she is a widow but they could have separated or the family may not have been willing to employ a married woman.
As you can see, something has happened between the 1881 and 91 census as neither, John nor Michael are in the baker/provision dealer business.
Michael NEAGLE dies in 1892
1901 26 Erskine Street, West Derby
Charles WILLIAMS, 28yrs., printers book keeper, born Liverpool
Amelia, wife, 26yrs., born Liverpool
Catherine NEAGLE, aunt, widow, 50yrs., born Cheadle, Staffordshire
Here is the mystery, how does Catherine NEAGLE become the aunt of the WILIAMS’S. Charles married Amelia HOLDEN in 1897. I can’t find any family link with Catherine and the William’s or Holden family. Unless the link is with the illusive Joseph DAVIES and a possible link with a WILLIAMS family as shown in previous postings.
As you can see, Catherine’s age varies enormously, I’ve seen this happen before when a couple I was following hardly aged in 40 years of census returns. But I did find her in 1851, in Stoke on Trent, Staffordshire, Catherine FINNEY, a servant aged 20yrs., born Cheadle, Staffs.
Can anyone find a link between Catherine NEAGLE and the WILLIAMS’S/HOLDEN’S. I know at the time relationships can be very loose but there much be some connection somewhere.
I really need a fresh pair of eyes looking at this as mine have started to cross.
Vanessa
John NEAGLE was born about 1835, in the census he gives his place of birth as Wexford, Ireland. On the 13th May 1860 he married Mary (Susannah) BOLD at St. Nicholas Roman Catholic Church, Liverpool, his occupation is a baker as is his father, John NEAGLE. Her family were Roman Catholics from Fazakerley.
In the 1861 census John and Mary NEAGLE are living with her parents along with their infant daughter, Elizabeth. There doesn’t appear to be any other NEAGLE family members in Liverpool in 1861, but in 1871 there is a Catherine NEAGLE, a widow aged 61yrs., born Ireland with a baker’s shop at 24 Bronte Street, Liverpool. It’s possible that Catherine is John’s mother as he names his second daughter, Catherine.
In 1881 Catherine NEAGLE has died and the shop has been taken over by a Michael NEAGLE as a provision shop, along with his wife, Catherine.
Michael NEAGLE is found in 1871 as a flour dealer in Bengal Street, Liverpool, he had married Kate (Catherine) FINNEY earlier in the year. He appears to be the Michael NEAGLE living as a boarder with John and Mary NEAGLE in 1891 and is possibly his brother and therefore the uncle of Catherine NEAGLE, wife of Joseph DAVIES
I have followed Michael NEAGLE and his wife Catherine through the census which has been difficult as their ages are not consistent, the only way I know that they are the right couple is that his wife was born in Cheadle, Staffordshire and variations of this place of birth appear on the census.
1871 Bengal Street, West Derby
Michael NEAGLE, 30yrs., flour dealer, born Ireland
Catherine, wife, 36yrs., born Staffordshire
1881 24 Bronte Street, Liverpool (occupied by Catherine Neagle as a bakers shop in 1871)
Michael NAGLE, 32yrs., provision dealer, born Ireland
Kate, wife, 27yrs., born Cheadle, Lancs.
1891 54 Greenside, West Derby, Liverpool (Parish of St. Jude)
John NEAGLE, 54yrs., groom, cardriver, born Wexford, Ireland
Mary, wife, 51yrs., born West Derby
John, son, 18yrs., mineral water bottler, born Liverpool
Alice, daughter, 12yrs., apprentice mantle maker, born Liverpool
Michael NEAGLE, boarder, married, 52yrs., groom cardriver, born Dublin, Ireland
Michael is married and I have found what looks like his wife in Wavertree
1891 Overton Road, Wavertree
House of James Harrison, timber merchant
Catherine NEAGLE, widow, 49yrs., cook, born Cheadle Staffs. She says she is a widow but they could have separated or the family may not have been willing to employ a married woman.
As you can see, something has happened between the 1881 and 91 census as neither, John nor Michael are in the baker/provision dealer business.
Michael NEAGLE dies in 1892
1901 26 Erskine Street, West Derby
Charles WILLIAMS, 28yrs., printers book keeper, born Liverpool
Amelia, wife, 26yrs., born Liverpool
Catherine NEAGLE, aunt, widow, 50yrs., born Cheadle, Staffordshire
Here is the mystery, how does Catherine NEAGLE become the aunt of the WILIAMS’S. Charles married Amelia HOLDEN in 1897. I can’t find any family link with Catherine and the William’s or Holden family. Unless the link is with the illusive Joseph DAVIES and a possible link with a WILLIAMS family as shown in previous postings.
As you can see, Catherine’s age varies enormously, I’ve seen this happen before when a couple I was following hardly aged in 40 years of census returns. But I did find her in 1851, in Stoke on Trent, Staffordshire, Catherine FINNEY, a servant aged 20yrs., born Cheadle, Staffs.
Can anyone find a link between Catherine NEAGLE and the WILLIAMS’S/HOLDEN’S. I know at the time relationships can be very loose but there much be some connection somewhere.
I really need a fresh pair of eyes looking at this as mine have started to cross.
Vanessa
Membership No. 7777
Hi Vanessa
Probably Aunt to Charles do you think, as relationship is usually to head of house
Charles and Amelia married at St Augustine Everton. You may need a look up of that marriage and go back from there
but as you say relationships were not necessarily as they seem.. she may not be related at all 
will have a look around
Simone x
Probably Aunt to Charles do you think, as relationship is usually to head of house
Charles and Amelia married at St Augustine Everton. You may need a look up of that marriage and go back from there
but as you say relationships were not necessarily as they seem.. she may not be related at all will have a look around
Simone x
MEMBER 5977
Name Interests:-
Davidson, Rule, Jones, Rudd, Watson, Duncan Barker/Barkley, Brooker, Whatton, Bainbridge, James, Hodgson, Nixon.
Any census information within this post is Crown Copyright from http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
Name Interests:-
Davidson, Rule, Jones, Rudd, Watson, Duncan Barker/Barkley, Brooker, Whatton, Bainbridge, James, Hodgson, Nixon.
Any census information within this post is Crown Copyright from http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
there is this marriage on Lancs BMD
1840
NEAGLE Frederick WILLIAMS Sarah Liverpool, Our Lady & St. Nicholas & St. Anne Liverpool
will see if anything stands out on census etc
1840
NEAGLE Frederick WILLIAMS Sarah Liverpool, Our Lady & St. Nicholas & St. Anne Liverpool
will see if anything stands out on census etc
MEMBER 5977
Name Interests:-
Davidson, Rule, Jones, Rudd, Watson, Duncan Barker/Barkley, Brooker, Whatton, Bainbridge, James, Hodgson, Nixon.
Any census information within this post is Crown Copyright from http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
Name Interests:-
Davidson, Rule, Jones, Rudd, Watson, Duncan Barker/Barkley, Brooker, Whatton, Bainbridge, James, Hodgson, Nixon.
Any census information within this post is Crown Copyright from http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
could be too much of a pickle to sort out without you going logically backwards with Charles and Amelia
on Lancs Opc there is a Charles Frederick Nagel marries Elizabeth Davies in 1805
getting into a whole new tree now
Simone x
on Lancs Opc there is a Charles Frederick Nagel marries Elizabeth Davies in 1805
getting into a whole new tree now
Simone x
MEMBER 5977
Name Interests:-
Davidson, Rule, Jones, Rudd, Watson, Duncan Barker/Barkley, Brooker, Whatton, Bainbridge, James, Hodgson, Nixon.
Any census information within this post is Crown Copyright from http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
Name Interests:-
Davidson, Rule, Jones, Rudd, Watson, Duncan Barker/Barkley, Brooker, Whatton, Bainbridge, James, Hodgson, Nixon.
Any census information within this post is Crown Copyright from http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
I checked around about 1910/1912 for Charles Williams
25 Montague Street, West Derby
Charles Albert Williams, 38yrs., managing clerk, merchants, born Liverpool
Amelia, wife, 36yrs., married 14yrs., no children, born Liverpool
I found a Charles A. Williamd in 1891
18 Bedford Street north, Liverpool
All born Liverpool
Elizabeth Williams, single, 56yrs., dressmaker
Jane, sister, single, 71yrs.
William, brother, 58yrs., widower, com. agent
Henry G. nephew, 26yrs.,
Leonora A., niece, 19yrs.
Charles A., nephew, 17yrs.
Beatrice M., niece, 16yrs.
Joseph A., nephew, 13yrs.
1881 16 Brownlow Street, Liverpool
All born Liverpool
William Williams, widower, 48yrs., manager and cashier in brewery
Henry Glover, son, 16yrs.
George F., son, 14yrs.
Children Ann L. Charles A and Beatrice are living with their aunt Jane Williams
Joseph A. is with his grandparents Joseph and Nancy Bryant, Nancy is his blood relative as Joseph Bryant is her second husband
William Williams married Mary Martha Ward in 1859 at St. Augustine
His father was Hugh Williams a mariner
Her father was Francis Edward Ward a grocer.
Witnesses Sarah Ann Williams and Constance Pritchard
Mary Martha Williams died 1880 aged 43yrs.
If this is the right Charles Williams, there still isn't any sign of the Neagle connection, yet.
Vanessa
25 Montague Street, West Derby
Charles Albert Williams, 38yrs., managing clerk, merchants, born Liverpool
Amelia, wife, 36yrs., married 14yrs., no children, born Liverpool
I found a Charles A. Williamd in 1891
18 Bedford Street north, Liverpool
All born Liverpool
Elizabeth Williams, single, 56yrs., dressmaker
Jane, sister, single, 71yrs.
William, brother, 58yrs., widower, com. agent
Henry G. nephew, 26yrs.,
Leonora A., niece, 19yrs.
Charles A., nephew, 17yrs.
Beatrice M., niece, 16yrs.
Joseph A., nephew, 13yrs.
1881 16 Brownlow Street, Liverpool
All born Liverpool
William Williams, widower, 48yrs., manager and cashier in brewery
Henry Glover, son, 16yrs.
George F., son, 14yrs.
Children Ann L. Charles A and Beatrice are living with their aunt Jane Williams
Joseph A. is with his grandparents Joseph and Nancy Bryant, Nancy is his blood relative as Joseph Bryant is her second husband
William Williams married Mary Martha Ward in 1859 at St. Augustine
His father was Hugh Williams a mariner
Her father was Francis Edward Ward a grocer.
Witnesses Sarah Ann Williams and Constance Pritchard
Mary Martha Williams died 1880 aged 43yrs.
If this is the right Charles Williams, there still isn't any sign of the Neagle connection, yet.
Vanessa
Membership No. 7777