ARCHER FAMILY MYSTERY.... PLS HELP

[simone]

Hi everyone

A lady called Annette has contacted me because I have Whatton family in my tree, and she is unsure if a marriage at St James Liverpool 1775 between Edward Archer and Martha Whatton is a clue to her Archer family. Martha is not in my tree, although I'm sure connected somewhere.

Anyway the story is this

My 4xgrtgrt grandfather was Robert Archer.
Robert Archer married Frances Holloway in 1804
at St Georges Hanover Square London.

Robert was working for Gillows the furniture people.

There is a story that in 1803, July, he received a letter from Liverpool,
saying that there was an article in the paper about an Uncle dying in Nth America, some say Barbados. The holder of the letter says it is too fragile to copy.

The letter, the writer Ann widow of his late brother Edward, says seeing as her husband is dead then Robert should go for it. The nephew is in good health, and she is still on good terms with his mother, mother would be writing soon.
The money or property was worth £30,000.

Granny Archer (Frances), Roberts wife must have told the family about this in the 1860's. Robert died in 1844.

The only Archer family I have come up with is the children
of Edward Archer and Martha Whatton of Walton on the Hill . They had 3 sons James,Edward and Robert.

So we are trying to establish if Robert in London in 1841 was born in Liverpool to Edward and Martha.

1841 census at North Row, St George Hanover Square
HO107; Piece 733; Book: 12 Folio: 12; Page: 16
Name Age
Robert Archer 60 Carpenter not born in county
Frances Archer 60

I have suggested looking at the marriage of Edward and Martha, and the baptisms of their children to see if any clues there, ( the 3 boys were baptised at St Mary, Walton on the Hill,) but I am hoping that one of you super sleuths on here may have access to any directories or newspaper articles that may shed light on the family. Maybe Edward (father) or Edward (brother) were in the furnture business too

(James b 1776
Robert b 1778
Edward b 1780)


Thanks as always team

Simone xx

[colette]

Hi

do we know where Robert Archer was born..if it says on the 1841 nor born in county.

xx

[simone]

Hiya Col

No, this is the problem... we think the with letter coming from Liverpool and mentioning a deceased brother Edward, may indicate that they are the Robert and Edward sons of Edward and Martha.

Robert has died in 1844 so we can't check 1851

It is just trying to find something to confirm that they are this family

Thanks

Simone xx

[Tina]

Hi Simmo
In the familysearch, All Resources, there a lots of Archer's in Barbados.

Newspaper articles for Liverpool Mercury don't start until 1811.

Tina

[MaryA]

There is a story that in 1803, July, he received a letter from Liverpool,
saying that there was an article in the paper about an Uncle dying in Nth America, some say Barbados. The holder of the letter says it is too fragile to copy.

I haven't been ble to find anything in the old newspapers. Is it definite that the uncle was an "Archer" as he could have been related on the mother's side.

I can understand that a document would be extremely fragile and the holder would be reluctant to subject it to a copier, but is there any chance that it could be transcribed to see if there were any more clues? For Robert or Edward to be able to follow it up there must have been some direction of where to look or who to contact.

[Katie]

Newspapers prior to the Liverpool Mercury would be the Kellys/Gores advertisier on microfilm at Liverpool when I am there tomorrow I will look to see which newspapers covered that time period

[simone]

Hi Tina, Mary. Katie

Thanks for looking

No, not definite that the uncle was an Archer.. as you say he could have been on mum's side

The only thing I am thinking is this. Ann, widow of Robert Archer's brother Edward, says that as Edward is deceased then Robert 'should go for it'. I think that may indicate that Edward was the older brother and so should have been the one to possibly inherit, but as he is no longer there then next brother could go for it

The boys in the Archer family from Liverpool have Robert as older than Edward

what do you think.. am I thinking about that correctly

You see it could be that Edward and Ann Archer had moved to Liverpool from somewhere else, and that is why we have a Liverpool connection

Thanks Katie

I will ask Annette to look in.. perhaps she could add to it and I'll let you know:)

Simone x

[simone]

Hi

Just to update

Holder of letter is going to get back to me, when he has read every thing, he said the letter
was too dark and too fragile to copy, but he has a copy written in pencil that he will try and photograph and
send to me.

witnesses at marriage of Robert Archer to Frances Holloway in 1804 were Rebecca Smith and John Southran, but don't know who they were

Possible Liverpool family is:

marriage Edward Archer to Martha Whatton at
St James Liverpool 5 Nov 1775

sons all baptised at St Mary, Walton on the Hill

James bap 15 Sep 1776
Robert bap 14 Jun 1778
Edward bap 12 mar 1780

I was just thinking if Ann's husband has already passed by 1803 and he is possibly the Edward b 1780, then he must have died young wonder if this letter could relate to a generation earlier

Hopefully Annette will get a copy and clues will be there

Thanks for all your help so far guys

Simone x

[colette]

Hi

been googling Archers Barbados found a few threads relating to a Anthony Archer

Hi Celene
It is a while since I looked at this and will need to check back, but my recollection is that the first thing we have is a letter to Robert dated around 1803 referring to an announcement in the "Liverpool papers" about the death of Robert Archer's uncle in the West Indies. Hence the Barbados connection with his uncle presumably sailing from Liverpool. I will dig out papers when I have some time and let you know what I have.
Presumably you can trace back through Sarah Rebecca or Emma Francis Horwood? My lineage comes down through Henry Burdett, Sarah-Ann's brother. Have you any information on Sarah-Ann's father. The stuff I hold is actually fascinating about a sugar plantation in Barbados which was left to him - hence the announcement - but which he never actually benefitted from.
Are you based in the UK?
Charlie


Celine who Charlie is responding to is a descendant of Sarah Ann Archer daughter of Robert.

Robert & Frances had Rebecca 1805, Henry Burdett 1807 Sarah Ann 1809, Robert 1812.

If Robert was the son of Edward & Martha then Edward would have to be the brother of this Anthony Archer in Barbados to be his nephew..


The so called lady named Ann is the widow of Robert's brother Edward she mentions his nephew is fine so only had one son by the looks of it and also mentions his mother and says she will be writting soon so still alive in c1803.

The Archers in Liverpool Edward & Martha i am thinking of a Flour Dealers connection with this family.. son James and his descendants

1825 James Archer Flour Dealer 49 King St & 20 Clayton Square

1827 Ann Archer Provisions Dealer 33 St Andrew St


1839 William & James Archer bringing Wheat into Liverpool says FM Danizio (ship maybe)

1846 James Archer baker Edge Hill

there are two marriages for a James Archer / Ellen Eaton 1803 St Nicolas one son named James 1805 address Thybarn St fathers occ Gentleman

James Archer & Jane Robinson St Ann 1807 with a brood of kids 1807 to 1823


There is an Edward Archer who marries an Ann Hatton in 1813 he is a Miller by occupation.

This marriage would be too late if Edward had already died by 1803 so there has to be another marriage out there for an Edward & Ann


complicated one this haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[simone]

Wow Col you've been busy

will have to read and digest all this

Annette said

One of my contacts in Australia, on Emma Frances Bursle side, grand daughter of Robert Archer,
made contact with a Charlie Gordon the holder of the letter, he is too busy, so he has passed everything
on to brother Richard

this must be the Charlie you mention

what do you think about Edward being deceased by 1803 but only born 1780 not impossible I suppose , tried to find a death in Liverpool that fits but no luck yet

will have to try and look at the parish registers and comfirm the occupation of Edward Snr

will go and read all this now

Thanks again

Simone xx

[simone]

There's a submitted entry on IGI

Edward Archer c 1776, m Ann Pope 1801 at St Margaret, Westminster London

[colette]

Hi Simone think i am losing my mind i could have swore i saw something mentioning an Anthony Archer and it wasnt a thread which a guy with same name wrote..

I have even found mention of an Anthony on a Slave compensation web site and an Edward too.

theres a marriage for an Anthony to a Mary Hollingsworth 1776 St Lucy, but i think he married a Mary Gilkes first, they had one son named Anthony born 1770..then 4 children with Mary HOLLINGSWORTH from 1778-1786.


this was the thread found it..!!!!

Information sought on relatives esp. place of birth (Lancashire?) and parentage of my gggg grandfather Robert Archer 1777-1844. Married Frances Holloway 21st May 1804, Hanover Square, London , children Robert(1812-1813), Sarah-Ann(1809-1847) Rebecca (1805-1855), Henry Burdett (1807 -1874). Brother of Edward Archer (m. Anna) of Liverpool.

Robert was apprenticed to Gillow (of Waring and Gillow) in London at beginning of 19th century.

Connection, not yet established, to Anthony Archer d1795, St. Lucy, Barbados leaving four children: Edward (Robert's uncle?), Benjamin, Anthony and William.
Charlie....

so he is sort of saying Anthony Archers son Edward born 1780 is the uncle of Robert born 1777..dont get it. or is he refering to Robert born 1812 he is the nephew of Edward...

If we go back to Anthonys marriages

Mary Gilkes one son Anthony born 1770

Mary Hollingsworth Edward born 1780, Benjamin born 1784, William born 1786 & Ann born 1778 all St Lucy Barbados.

How can Edward be Roberts uncle Robert was born before him ?????.

I could understand Anthony or maybe a brother of Anthony being an Uncle to him.

Its getting a bit complicated dont you think ?

[simone]

yep,, confusing


I don't think who was born first would matter would it as to the realtionship.. if my mother were to have a child now (god forbid,.. her being 79!!) it would still be my daughters uncle or aunt

but whouldn't this Edward and Robert be cousins

Anthony must be uncle surely

think i'll have to write it down and then lie down

[simone]

Hi Col

I think we would need something more concrete to sort it, a look at the letter details perhaps.

Some people have obviously made some headway in to research on the families and we don't have access to that info so can't see the tree properly.

Edwards' wife is referred to as Anna in the info you have found, so could she have been Hannah. it may be that the family is nothing to do with Liverpool but Edward and Ann just moved here.

Perhaps we best wait for the letter.. we have nothing yet to link for definite to Liverpool, apart from letter being sent

I've told Annette that I don't mind looking at those entries for Edward and Martha in the registers at some point.

Thanks for trying to help

Simone xx

[colette]

Hi

Just looking at Slave owners c 1834 theres an Anthony Archer in St Lucy he has one slave named Arthur ..Anthony is down as an Invalid

keep it for the notes..

I agree we are clutching at straws realy all we know is the Robert in Hanover Square had an uncle who died in West Indies c 1803 and he was told ny his sister in Law Anna Hannah etc in Liverpool haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa


xx

[simone]

Thanks Col

Hope you are ok and shoulder? on the mend?

Simone x

[MaryA]

Maybe it's not conclusive, but you've done very well Col.

Just in case they are of any help to build a tree I thought I'd quote a few Memorial Inscriptions.

St James Church, Toxteth Park Page 159
Here lies the body of Daniel ARCHER of the town of Salem in the state of
Massachusetts, who departed this life on the 3rd June 1806, aged 28 years.

St Marks Church, Upper Duke Street Page 611
Sacred to the memory of Mary, wife of Thomas ARCHER of Maryport in the
county of Cumberland, who died in Liverpool on the 12th of June 1824,
aged 40 years

[simone]

Col's done brill hasn't she Mary we should call her Sherlock

Thanks for those MI's

Simone x

[MaryA]

Col's done brill hasn't she Mary we should call her Sherlock

When she gets the bit between her teeth .......

[simone]

1827 Ann Archer Provisions Dealer 33 St Andrew St

sorry just putting this on record just in case

reckon this may be the Ann above

1841 census
HO107; Piece 560; Book: 14 District: 15; Folio: 7; Page: 10
Ann Archer 60 shopkeeper
Ambrose Archer 55
Ann Archer


1851 Minshull Street
HO107; Piece: 2192; Folio: 311; Page: 45
Name Age
Anne Archer 66 provision dealer b Walton
Ambrose Archer 64 brother, retired miller b Walton
Anne Archer 36 b West Derby

all are unmarried.

James Archer and Jane had a son called Ambrose, so maybe James is brother to Ambrose the retired miller.

Also Lancs opc has

Baptisms: 14 Mar 1819 St Nicholas, Liverpool, Ambrose Archer - Son of James Archer & Jane
Abode: North Shore
Occupation: Miller
Baptised by: P. Bulmer Curate
Register: Baptisms 1817 - 1820 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Page 3, Entry 78


but then Ambrose marries-

Marriage: 10 Aug 1843 St George, Everton, Lancashire, England
Ambrose Archer - full Flour Dealer Bachelor of Windsor
to Mary Bretherton - full Spinster of Minshull St Edge Hill
Groom's Father: James Archer, Flour Dealer
Bride's Father: Richard Bretherton, Inn Keeper
Witness: James Archer; Jane Archer
Married by Licence by: W. W. Ewbank Mr.
Register: Marriages 1837 - 1848, Page 149, Entry 297
Source: LDS Film 2147913


but what's that all about , Bachelor of Windsor? he was born in Liverpool, so has he just been living and working in Windsor?
but he is a corn dealer in 1851 living on Prescot Road, West Derby
HO107; Piece: 2192; Folio: 750; Page: 23


Anyway like you say Col, all these families seem to be in to Flour... Robert in London was a carpenter and apprenticed at Gillows. I haven't seen any Archer Carpenters in Liverpool yet you normally get one or two in close, even extended family in the same sort of profession. There are a few Watchmakers on the OPC, but nothing to do with woodwork/carving/furniture

Thinking Liverpool may turn out to be a red herring

Simone x